| Author |
Topic: A Bad Precedent: No Steel Player Onstage |
Fish
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 7:39 am |
|
I tuned in the Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon a couple weeks ago and heard Florida Georgia Line "perform" their new single "Dirt." I heard pedal steel all over the choruses, but there was one big problem: there was no steel player onstage.
I'd post the link of this phenomenon for you but somehow all of the videos have either been pulled from youtube or have expired at NBC.
BUT, here is the same deal happening on Good Morning America a day later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozSLB4DZDlo
So, if these guys can afford four guitars onstage, why can't they hire a pedal steel player? Or at least hire someone locally in NYC to cover the steel slot for them on the promo tour? Do they really think all viewers wouldn't notice there was no one playing the instrument they heard in the track?
I've seen many artists play to instrumental tracks on tv in the past, but rarely have I seen them abandon an instrument in the mix altogether while on camera. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon with steel? |
|
|
 |
Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 9:41 am Re: A Bad Precedent: No Steel Player Onstage
|
|
| Fish wrote: |
| So, if these guys can afford four guitars onstage, why can't they hire a pedal steel player? Or at least hire someone locally in NYC to cover the steel slot for them on the promo tour? Do they really think all viewers wouldn't notice there was no one playing the instrument they heard in the track? |
Several things come to my mind:
1. No, that audience wouldn't notice that there is no steel on stage. If Buddy Emmons was there it would have made no difference to them. If they never have a steel guitar on stage, or on their records, I don't think their musical success will suffer one bit. I don't know why they even used a steel guitar on the session when the song was recorded. I don't think it added anything to make me more interested in listening to their song, let alone buy any of their music.
2. Maybe these guys were using Bill Anderson's keyboard player with his steel guitar sounds. 
3. This is about the image not the music. If these guys were wearing khaki pants and a nice long sleeved shirt, and stood in one place and played/sang their music, it would not have generated anywhere near the response from the audience.
4. The gospel groups do this all the time. They will have a piano player and bass player on stage, (if that much) and the music will have drums, horns, and string sections blasting at you. I think this borders on deceiving people, unless it is disclosed. Why even have the singers there? Why not just show a video? It would be no more boring to me.
5. If you are a steel guitar lover, I think you might be: per Johnny Lee "Looking For Love In All The Wrong Places" 
Just my opinions, your mileage may vary.
RC |
|
|
|
Ken Campbell
From:
Ferndale, Montana
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 9:47 am
|
|
| I think it sucks and is clearly deceptive. |
|
|
|
Ray Harrison
From:
Tucson, Arizona, USA (deceased)
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 10:25 am
|
|
The crowd thinks that one of the flat tops is making that sound.....They don't suspect.
_________________
Ray Harrison
Bass/sing/Love PSG
77 Stingray/Kiesel 5 string bass
Telonics , Fender Rumble500, Polytone Amps
D-16 Martin, 1970 Ovation guitars |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 11:00 am Re: A Bad Precedent: No Steel Player Onstage
|
|
| Fish wrote: |
I heard pedal steel all over the choruses, but there was one big problem: there was no steel player onstage...
So, if these guys can afford four guitars onstage, why can't they hire a pedal steel player? Or at least hire someone locally in NYC to cover the steel slot for them on the promo tour? Do they really think all viewers wouldn't notice there was no one playing the instrument they heard in the track?
|
Well, I figure they're probably banking on the fact that 99.5% of their listeners could care less whether or not there's a steel in the song...or on stage. 
All this group has and does is the same formula that so many male groups have today. Simple songs, simple harmonies, and lotsa young energy, that's what's on the menu. Appeal? Man, they're appealing to most everyone. They've got a bald muscle-guy, a guy with "tank and tats", a couple of cool guys with shades, a couple long hairs, a couple conservative guys with short hair and sleeves, and even one with facial hair. No fat guys, though...and no old guys, either.
Plain and simple - steel isn't in there because young honeys really don't give a $#!& about steel guitar. |
|
|
|
Peter Nylund
From:
Finland
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 11:18 am
|
|
Is that a tattoo contest or something. All crap if you ask me.
_________________
I know my playing is a bit pitchy, but at least my tone sucks |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 12:20 pm
|
|
I have a friend who saw Sara Evens in person one time who also knows her personally. Her recorded stuff is really heavy with PSG. No one on stage with her, but all the steel parts were there, right up front in the songs, the way it is supposed to be. She told him it was just economics. It was easier and cheaper to just have the steel playing on tracks they took with them on the road. I'm sure this technique is done a lot. Even with other instruments, and even other genres (can anyone say Milli Vanilli?).
I didn't see the show(s), and probably won't. I don't care a whole lot for Florida Georgia Line, well, not enough to purposely seek out their stuff. But even if they have 4 guitar players, one of them should have been a double duty guy. Guitar and steel. FGL is just spreading bad mojo in the steel guitar world by doing that.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Wally Moyers
From:
Lubbock, Texas
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 1:03 pm
|
|
| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
I have a friend who saw Sara Evens in person one time who also knows her personally. Her recorded stuff is really heavy with PSG. No one on stage with her, but all the steel parts were there, right up front in the songs, the way it is supposed to be. She told him it was just economics. It was easier and cheaper to just have the steel playing on tracks they took with them on the road. I'm sure this technique is done a lot. Even with other instruments, and even other genres (can anyone say Milli Vanilli?).
I didn't see the show(s), and probably won't. I don't care a whole lot for Florida Georgia Line, well, not enough to purposely seek out their stuff. But even if they have 4 guitar players, one of them should have been a double duty guy. Guitar and steel. FGL is just spreading bad mojo in the steel guitar world by doing that. |
Who ever played steel on her session should get paid for those performances… Total ripoff! |
|
|
|
Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 1:14 pm
|
|
| Wally Moyers wrote: |
| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
I have a friend who saw Sara Evens in person one time who also knows her personally. Her recorded stuff is really heavy with PSG. No one on stage with her, but all the steel parts were there, right up front in the songs, the way it is supposed to be. She told him it was just economics. It was easier and cheaper to just have the steel playing on tracks they took with them on the road. I'm sure this technique is done a lot. Even with other instruments, and even other genres (can anyone say Milli Vanilli?).
I didn't see the show(s), and probably won't. I don't care a whole lot for Florida Georgia Line, well, not enough to purposely seek out their stuff. But even if they have 4 guitar players, one of them should have been a double duty guy. Guitar and steel. FGL is just spreading bad mojo in the steel guitar world by doing that. |
Who ever played steel on her session should get paid for those performances… Total ripoff! |
I disagree. Session players get paid for the session, not royalties on when the recording is played.
RC |
|
|
|
Wally Moyers
From:
Lubbock, Texas
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 1:30 pm
|
|
| Rick Campbell wrote: |
| Wally Moyers wrote: |
| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
I have a friend who saw Sara Evens in person one time who also knows her personally. Her recorded stuff is really heavy with PSG. No one on stage with her, but all the steel parts were there, right up front in the songs, the way it is supposed to be. She told him it was just economics. It was easier and cheaper to just have the steel playing on tracks they took with them on the road. I'm sure this technique is done a lot. Even with other instruments, and even other genres (can anyone say Milli Vanilli?).
I didn't see the show(s), and probably won't. I don't care a whole lot for Florida Georgia Line, well, not enough to purposely seek out their stuff. But even if they have 4 guitar players, one of them should have been a double duty guy. Guitar and steel. FGL is just spreading bad mojo in the steel guitar world by doing that. |
Who ever played steel on her session should get paid for those performances… Total ripoff! |
I disagree. Session players get paid for the session, not royalties on when the recording is played.
RC |
Legally Rick you are correct, but something don't seem right about it to me… Especially on live TV… |
|
|
|
David Nugent
From:
Gum Spring, Va.
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 1:36 pm
|
|
| Electronics are all well and good until something malfunctions. Remember the '90's when it was fashionable to form two and three piece groups and have the remainder of the,"Band in a Box". Recall more than one instance where the "bands" would arrive at a club job and the tracks not work, (sort of difficult to line dance to just two guitars and no bass or drums). |
|
|
|
Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 2:39 pm
|
|
| Wally Moyers wrote: |
| Rick Campbell wrote: |
| Wally Moyers wrote: |
| Richard Sinkler wrote: |
I have a friend who saw Sara Evens in person one time who also knows her personally. Her recorded stuff is really heavy with PSG. No one on stage with her, but all the steel parts were there, right up front in the songs, the way it is supposed to be. She told him it was just economics. It was easier and cheaper to just have the steel playing on tracks they took with them on the road. I'm sure this technique is done a lot. Even with other instruments, and even other genres (can anyone say Milli Vanilli?).
I didn't see the show(s), and probably won't. I don't care a whole lot for Florida Georgia Line, well, not enough to purposely seek out their stuff. But even if they have 4 guitar players, one of them should have been a double duty guy. Guitar and steel. FGL is just spreading bad mojo in the steel guitar world by doing that. |
Who ever played steel on her session should get paid for those performances… Total ripoff! |
I disagree. Session players get paid for the session, not royalties on when the recording is played.
RC |
Legally Rick you are correct, but something don't seem right about it to me… Especially on live TV… |
Yes, Yes, I wasn't very clear on that. We are on the same page. I meant that I disagree with this practice. I think there should be a provision that the players on the session get paid if the track is used for live performances. The AFM should recognize that this only puts live musicians out of work. Karoke session players know up front that this is the purpose they are playing for. Unfortunately, there would be no support from the public on this because they don't care, and 99.9999 percent of them already believe that if you play on a session and the song becomes a big hit, that you get a lot of money after the fact.
RC |
|
|
|
Rick Campbell
From:
Sneedville, TN, USA
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 2:53 pm
|
|
| David Nugent wrote: |
| Electronics are all well and good until something malfunctions. Remember the '90's when it was fashionable to form two and three piece groups and have the remainder of the,"Band in a Box". Recall more than one instance where the "bands" would arrive at a club job and the tracks not work, (sort of difficult to line dance to just two guitars and no bass or drums). |
I don't like that either, but it's a little different because they have to put songs together in some type of sequencing program. The truth is that some venues will pay a couple of guys and their electronic accompaniment, and if it cost more than that, they will hire a DJ. As for line dancing..... I think that was the beginning of the end of traditional country music.
I don't think singing to tracks is anything new, even lip syncing. I remember seeing an old Ray Price video from a TV appearance where he appeared to say the wrong word or something that gave it away.
RC |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 3:02 pm Just One Drink
|
|
I like the way Jack White added steel to this song when performing live. There's no steel on the record - that spot is filled with fiddle. Also, he elevates the steel on a riser where everyone can see what's making "that sound".
http://youtu.be/4p_ZhD3S4hY?t=1m4s
He could have told the steel player to sit that song out. Seems that rock likes steel more than country does these days.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Storm Rosson
From:
Silver City, NM. USA
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 3:40 pm
|
|
I think you're on it Bob, but even narrower than genre but to certain pickers that are classy enuff to respect the instrument, ie; Big Head Todd, White Buffalo, obviously Jack White,Jimmy Webb doin gigs with he and psg, and some more I forget atm, but yeah it seems the "hip" real musicians out there got respect for the instrument(s) IMO...Stormy  |
|
|
|
Ron Funk
From:
Ballwin, Missouri
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 4:01 pm
|
|
Fish - I agree, bad.
However, do you think the licks you're referring to in the FGL video might be played by the white-neck-tied six stringer on stage right? |
|
|
|
Fish
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 5:24 pm
|
|
Hey Ron--these crusty ole ears of mine hear pedal steel in the track, not a six-stringer coping the licks. The artists would like the public to believe that the six-stringer is playing the licks. :0)
The reuse rules are all over the map for live shows, and I'm no expert in this field.
I believe in this case they are singing to a "TV mix," which means a mix with everything heard on the single minus the lead vocals. This has been common practice for decades and sometimes you get a check and sometimes you don't, depending on the deal each tv company has with the union.
My complaint - on Labor Day - is that a steel guitarist wasn't hired to appear on TV pretending to play these up-front-in the-mix parts. I realize I am naive.
My hope is that the actual studio player receives "reuse" checks.
On the subject of nightly concert usage of studio session tracks: that's shameful. If it ever happened to me I'd be on the phone to the artist and the union, in that order. |
|
|
|
Alan Tanner
From:
Near Dayton, Ohio
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 5:32 pm
|
|
| Non of my teen to early 30's nieces and nephews know, or intend to find out, what a steel guitar is or what it sounds like.......... |
|
|
|
Patrick Strain
From:
Binghamton/Gilbertsville, NY
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 5:38 pm
|
|
They're all singing through autotune, anyway. It's not like the lack of a steel player is their biggest crime.
_________________
Sierra Crown D-10 8+4, Sierra S-10 3+4, Carter D-10 8+7, Carter Starter 3+ a lot of engineering problems |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 5:54 pm
|
|
What's new about this, for me, is that it's The Tonight Show. I can't imagine Carson ever permitting something like this - he was a huge 'band guy', and he and the Tonight Show Band took great pride in the live music on that show. But I've seen ghost parts on various TV shows plenty of times over the years - at least nobody was visible playing a part that was clearly audible, and not just steel.
I also think it's possible that those long stringing licks are slide guitar. Mostly single-string long slides, I think they could be copped by the right slide player. But I don' see anybody on stage playing slide guitar either. But frankly, on that GMA show, the constant crazy swooping camera shots make it hard to tell what the blazes is going on. Could be someone way stage-right/left, or even offstage. If the player didn't fit the 'demographic portfolio' of the band, they might just hide him/her. But I listened to a few varied youtube live shows of the same tune, and those licks sounded identical to me. Now maybe someone could nail them exactly the same every time live, but it led me to believe it was a track. There sure was nobody visible onstage playing anything like steel or even slide guitar.
Regardless of all that, someone may be getting paid. Considering the recent AFM flap over a WNET/PBS taping of a Jackie Evancho show at Longwood Gardens in Kennett Square, PA, southwest of Philly (I got AFM emails about this for a week or two last month) - https://www.facebook.com/notes/afm-american-federation-of-musicians/afm-member-alert-re-jackie-evancho/10152621323466085 - I have a hard time imagining the Tonight Show or any other major live TV show getting away with playing to tracks without someone getting paid. But I could be wrong.
Of course, I would much prefer strictly live music shows, but I don't think that's gonna happen. The idea of going to a major act regular concert and find them playing to tracks just makes me mad. But I guess that's why I stay out of the 'musical mainstream'. |
|
|
|
Jim Hoke
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 6:57 pm
|
|
| Dave Pomeroy, president of the Nashville branch of the Musicians Union has in fact passed new legislation for just such a situation. Yes, it sucks that performers will go on the cheap and use canned tracks to enhance their live sound. But thanks to Dave, now at least the session guy who played the part will get some dough. I agree that studio guys should get paid once for their performance FOR A RECORDING. (Except for re-issues, film placements, etc.) But when their part is being used as a live "performance", with somebody onstage pretending to play it, as often happens, that's another kettle of fish. |
|
|
|
Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 7:36 pm
|
|
On the subject of an artist that uses track for some parts, there is, of course, the chance of a malfunction. But do you really think they don't have a backup system? I'm sure it happens, but I would be surprise if famous act used tracks for te rhythm section. If that system malfunctioned, it would be a disaster. If a steel guitar track screwed up, probably no one would ever notice.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
|
|
|
Barry Blackwood
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 8:04 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| She told him it was just economics. |
Bullshit. If that was the case, why didn't they start doing this fifty years ago.? Imagine how much money they would have saved. "Economics" has become the new universal excuse.. |
|
|
|
Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
|
Posted 1 Sep 2014 8:07 pm
|
|
| Jim Hoke wrote: |
| ...when their part is being used as a live "performance", with somebody onstage pretending to play it, as often happens, that's another kettle of fish. |
In that case, one would hope that two people are getting paid for the part: the one who actually played the part in the studio and the one who is miming playing the part on stage, live. That probably ain't gonna happen either...
_________________
www.JimCohen.com
www.RonstadtRevue.com
www.BeatsWalkin.com |
|
|
|
Jim Hoke
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 2 Sep 2014 4:00 am
|
|
| Jim, the "mimer" is already in the band and on salary. It's the keyboard player picking up a harmonica and looking like he's playing it. Or, God forbid, the guitar player looking like he's bending strings "real good" over a steel guitar track. (How stupid do they think audiences are? Pretty stupid, obviously.) I was once called to a studio to play, verbatim, a tricky harp part off a record, for a famous country artist. I prepared for the session by writing it down in standard notation. I had every bend, etc. As I was carving my way thru this big solo t the session, it came out that my performance was to be panomimmed in the artist's live show every night by the keyboard guy. (This was before the new Union Scale for this type of use.) I said I'd need a lot more money than we'd talked about if it was gonna be a one-time buy-out for something that'd be used every night on the road. They refused. I told them to erase what I's done and walked out (after playing most of the part). Stupid me, they've probably been using it all this time and I walked out and got paid nothing! |
|
|
|
