Help with choosing copedant?

Daniel Bennett · From: Austin, Texas, USA

I need some help. The only thing standing between me and my first PSG is a decision on the copedant! I know this is largely a personal decision, but I'm appealing to forum members for advice in the hope that you can put yourself in my "beginner" shoes.

I'm having a hard time deciding between
1. Extended E9
2. Universal 12
3. Sacred Steel
4. A hybrid of E9 and Sacred Steel like b0b's or Dan Tyack's

I realize that they are different animals, and I would get completely different sounds out of each. I've read much of the forum material on this subject, but my head still spins.

To put a positive spin on my inexperience, I could say I'm not "burdened" by years of ingrained E9 or C6 habits, so I can take advantage of any innovations in tuning configurations. That means I could start learning a Sacred Steel or Universal tuning if they have real advantages.

E9 may be the right choice for me because there are many more resources (teachers, tab, books) for straight or extended E9 than other tunings. It has a proven history and it sounds great. The same applies to the Universal setup.

Sacred Steel may be right for me, not because I will be playing gospel (I won't) but because I get the impression it is excellent for strummed rhythm work and it has at least one clever innovation (double E strings). It seems suited for blues and blues-rock as well, which is more up my alley. But finding an instructor to speed my learning would be difficult if not impossible.

And using a hybrid, I imagine there would be compromises.

Other facts that may or may not be relevant to your advice:
I will probably spend more time supporting alt-country and folk-rock musicians than straight country bands.
I like the idea of being able to strum chords, in addition to picking them out.
I plan to get a Fessenden unless Sierra starts making instruments again soon.
I have over 10 years experience with 6 string lap steel in open E.
I prefer a single neck PSG because it's lighter and smaller. I will be gigging with it.

Any and all opinions will be considered seriously, since that's the kind of guy I am.
Danny

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My email address:
DAN (at) TASTEFUL (dot) COM

David Doggett · Posted 24 Jan 2004 2:05 pm

Wow, get ready for the storm, Dan. As you know by now, most traditional country pickers will tell you to get a D10 or an ext. E9. And it's true you can play blues and rock on anything. But for country-rock, rock, and blues, I think the universal is by far the best thing. You can play 90% or more of the traditional E9 and C6 stuff (which many country-rock and folk-rock groups will want). And with a thoughtful selection of the changes on your pedals and levers, you can add great blues and rock potential to your copedent that I think rivals what you get with a Sacred Steeler E7 tuning, and blows away either E9 or C6.

When you put the A pedal C# raise on the 12th string, you get strummable Bo Diddley stuff by simply AB pedaling, and power chords out the wazoo, with or without pedaling.

You can lower your 8th string for the 7th, or raise your 9th (or best of all, do both on different levers). The D lever gives you the 7th on top, and can also be rigged to give you one of the ways to get a 7th at the middle and/or bottom.

If you want the double Es, just put a lower on your 7 string.

There is lots of additional pentatonic blues stuff at the IIIb fret with pedals open, and at the VIIb fret with the AB pedals down (i.e., within two or three frets either side of the tonic).

With the A pedal down (the ralative minor position) there is tons of pentatonic and minor blues stuff with the 9 string as the root.

In the B6 mode, having the B pedal down gives you a B7 tuning with tons of blues potential.

In E9 mode I use my LKV to raise the 1 and 7 string F#s to G, to get an A7 tuning with the AB pedals down. With your toes on the AB pedals, it is very natural to use your toes on the AB pedals to leverage your knee up against the vertical lever and hold it there.

The Sacred Steeler tuning, being a dedicated E7 pentatonic tuning, has a slight edge for simplicity and speed for playing blues. But it seems no where near as versatile for everything else compared to E9, C6, or universal setups.

So all in all, it seems to me the universal gives you 90% or better of what you get on all three of the other necks (E9, C6, SS E7). The universal neck is deep. Proponents of the other necks will always point out two or three specialty lever changes you can't get on a uni (mechanically you can get any of them, but practically speaking you would have to sacrifice something probably more useful). What they fail realize is that in return for those few non-standard personal lick levers, you get the entire copedent of the other necks at your finger tips from note to note - incredible versatility in any genre. There are many lifetimes of untapped stuff in the universal. To paraphrase Patrick Henry: I regret that I have only one life to give to my uni.

Finally, be aware that the uni presents the biggest challenge for builders. Mechanics that work smooth and easy enough for 10-string necks (that mostly have 2 or 3 pulls per pedal or lever), sometimes don't for the 12-string neck, where most important pedals and levers have 3 or more pulls. Also, little things like guaged nut rollers become important, because of the really big strings on the bottom of a uni (not found on E9 or ext. E9), and the extensive time you spend at the first fret (C fret on a uni, versus C# fret on C6). In my opinion, Zum and the new MSA are two of the best unis currently being made (although I have not tried some of the less common brands such as Exel, Fulawka and Williams).

Well, let the fireworks commence.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

My local mentor's steel is a Zum Universal and it is a fine steel. Though I haven't spent as much time on it as my D-10, I can see it is a good compromise between the two necks on mine.

He now wants to get another D-10 after playing mine... go figure. He did have a PP for a decade.

I want to keep the D-10 and get a MSA either universaal or Bb6, for several of the reasons above. I am not a huge E9 head, but it DOES have some very useful things in several situations similar to what you say you want to play.

I don't regret in any way (except weight) not getting a Uni vs the D-10, but as an alternate machine I want an S-12 for most of the reasons above.
But it is not likely to be a stock setup one way or another.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Standard E9 Emmons setup. (see his website for copedant)

Standard (Emmons) setup for C6. ( D on top)

Mostly for the reasons you mentioned.

Standardization, or both methods and teachers.

Finding a TEACHER or method will be much easier.

Just my opinion.

Gotta run. Nap,gig, nap,work,nap,gig,nap work, etc ad inf...

EJL

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

For a beginner, I recommend standard E9. It's the mainstream.

Nathan Delacretaz · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Hey, another newbie from Austin (like yours truly)! Circumstances kinda made my decision for me, as I lucked into a great deal on a student S10 E9...I then quickly upgraded to a pro SD10. I was not looking for a particular sound, just wanting to master the relationships on the fretboard - my humble, novice opinion is that those relationships can eventually be applied to any tuning/setup down the road. In other words, committing to a starting point may be more important than you target sound/style. Lessons, instructional materials, and choice (and price) of guitar all favor standard E9.

Travis Bernhardt · From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

In the interests of further clouding your decision, I suggest a hybrid Sacred Steel tuning--but I would make it a hybrid Universal, rather than a hybrid E9. I'm only half kidding.

Low to high:

B E (G#) B E E G# B E G# D# F#

The main question is whether to keep the low G#, sticking it more in the Universal camp--in which case you might as well have a seventh string F# and be done with it--or whether to drop the low G# and really have a strummable tuning (albeit an 11 string one without a very handy G#; keep in mind that you could always change your tuning back to a 12 string one later).

Then, load up the guitar with the standard Universal (E9 & B6) changes, as well as a few essential Sacred Steel changes (7th string E>F#, all G#s>G etc.), and then rock or jazz or country or gospel out to your heart's content. Your instructional material will still work, thanks to the E9 and B6 changes. You'll be able to rip into your power chords like on your lap steel, too.

The sad thing is that no matter what you pick you're gonna have to give up something (unless you're Carl Dixon). Do you want easier rhythm playing, or slightly expanded chord options and single note ability in the low register? There's no way to know until you've tried it for a while. And even then you won't know (unless you get multiple guitars... someday Travis... someday...).

-Travis

P.S. Compare the Chuck Campbell tuning listed on the Carter website to a few Universal tunings--especially the stripped down "lean & mean" one also on the Carter site. You might find it interesting.

[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 25 January 2004 at 12:51 AM.]

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Well one thing you can greatly benifit from is your location.

If you can sit down with a solid player on a D-10 for an hour or so, and ALSO a solid player on a U-12 for the same time in Austin your just not looking.

A bit of hands on and having the player show you what things / sounds he can get will go a long way to making your decision. I wish I had that option early on.
I did get my hands on the Uni a bit, but only after I had bought the D-10, but before it got here. That was quite useful to me in any event.

Much of the C6 TAB I found didn't match my copedent, even though it was one of BE's copedents, for various reasons... for ALL licks and levers, but there was a lot that did no problem.
So if I wanted to slavishly learn a whole song it was problematic, but then again I did learn a lot of stuff, and understanding the instrument was my goal, not to become a copyist.

b0b's point of available instructional materials is correct of course.

But a good teacher/mentor/friend in your area with a U-12 would also go a long way towards your developement. Whichever course you chart.
But hey, I'm a heritic, your milage may differ LOL.

David Doggett · Posted 25 Jan 2004 8:30 am

Dan, just a few more practical thoughts. If you don't like a uni, you can easily convert it to an ext. E9, 10-string E9, SS E7, or even a 10- or 12-string C6. This is not true for an ext. E9 (anything is possible, but it would not be simple and cheap).

Another cool thing about a uni is that you get to try out all the B6/C6 stuff, whether or not you have any immediate plans for it. I was pleasantly surprised to find that, with no instruction and little practice, the B6 mode of my uni could be used almost as a lap C6 to play rockabilly and primitive Western Swing and '40s-'50s country. Almost everyone falls in love with the 6th neck once they try it. The uni is just a cheaper, lighter way to try out C6. If you later wanted to, I think the transition from a uni to a double-neck would be easier than the reverse. The alt-country groups will love it when you throw in some of that simple 6th neck stuff occassionally; and blues groups like it when you throw in some occassional 6th neck jazz chords.

Finally, when you start trying the 6th neck stuff, on a uni it relates directly to what you already know about an E neck, which is not true for C6 neck. On a uni, if you want to go from your tonic position in E9 mode to the tonic position of the same key in B6 mode, you just go to the IV fret. If you are in B6 mode and want to go back to E9 mode, you go to the B6-mode V fret. If you are at the V fret in B6 mode, and you release the B6-mode lever, it resolves to the tonic in E9 mode. So, if you know an E neck, you already know the frets for standard keys in the B6 mode. For example, if you are playing in A in E9 mode, and you switch to B6 mode, the I, IV, V etc. chords will be at the same frets as for the key of E in E9 mode. Key of G frets in B6 mode will be the same as key of C frets in E9 mode, etc. You will be surprised how well you already know the B6 neck. The C6 neck, on the other hand, is foreign territory, with all the fret markers shifted a half step. 'Course, you can adapt to anything. So this is no show stopper, just some more lagniappe you get with a uni.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I have been playing for 33 years with probably about 28 of those on a D10. If I was to start out new today, I would opt for an E9th uni. As far as learning from courses or tab, E9th is no problem and C6th is possible with the exception of having to transpose everything up 1 fret and not being able to play much in the open position.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Gotta go along with b0bby on this one.

carl

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Nicholas Dedring · From: Beacon, New York, USA

I only know that I was intrigued by the idea of a universal tuning when I was looking for a steel, but I just happened across a deal on a D10 and picked it up. That being said, I really don't think I would have known how to put together a U12 tuning that had what I needed, because I had no idea how to figure out what I needed, and what those changes were going to do for me.

At this point, I don't want to learn new grips, and I like the wide body... and learning materials are easier to get. There's no right or wrong answer... but think also about what kind of music you want to make, and also what kind of bands are looking for a steelplayer... sacred steel is great for a style of music in which bandleaders are a lot less likely to be looking for a steel in the band, you know?

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

That's a good point, Nicholas. Early in my steel-playing "career", I used an unusual tuning that didn't sound like E9th. There were bandleaders who wouldn't hire me because I sounded different. When I switched to E9th, I got a lot more work.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Aaron Garrett · From: Roslindale, Massachusetts, USA

I've started playing recently so maybe my experience will be helpful. I bought a 13 string Fessenden from Jerry. I have it in a universal tuning with an open D on the 9th, 5 knees 8 pedals. I have no problem playing E9th instructional material since I have A, B, and C pedals the basic levers and more, and no problem playing C6th material. But best of all I can play stuff bridging both. For example I've been playing "Linus and Lucy" using the C6th bass string to keep the piano left hand going and the E9th strings and pedals to play the melody. I'm so happy I decided to start on a Universal!

[This message was edited by Aaron Garrett on 27 January 2004 at 01:28 PM.]

MUSICO · From: Jeremy Williams in Spain

What tuning BoB?

Jeremy Williams
Barcelona Spain

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Randy Pettit · From: North Texas USA

OK, I'll pile on, too. As much as I heartily agree with both Davids on the U-12 concept (I also play a U-12), I would strongly recommend that your first PSG be an S-10 E9 with at least 3x4. The biggest advantage being the TONS of learning material available. Also, you'd be surprised at what sounds you can get out of an E9 tuning (7ths, 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, etc...). Don't fret

about your tuning/setup at this point. This will NOT be the last PSG you'll buy in your lifetime!

David Doggett · Posted 27 Jan 2004 7:20 pm

I agree with several above that a standard E9 is a good thing to start on. It will keep you busy and give you plenty of time and experience to help you think about other things later. On the other hand, I no longer would council someone not to start on a uni. It will give you more to grow into and keep you busy a lot longer. And it lets you sample and try out so many different genres. Of the 4 options Dan asked about in his initial post, the uni seems best to me for the reasons I gave above (just my humble opinion based on my own unique experience). The uni really has more standard stuff than some of the options he mentions, and has a lot of potential for all the kinds of music he mentions.

Aaron Garrett · From: Roslindale, Massachusetts, USA

Maybe because my 13 string has an open D things are different, but its perfectly easy to play E9 instructional material on it. You just play 1-10 and the E9 oriented pedals and levers. I've had no problem going through the WInston/Keith book, and I can't see why anyone else would either. Is the lack of D string on a regular U-12 that big of a hang up?

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

It would be for me.

Glenn Suchan · From: Austin, Texas

Daniel,

After reading your post, it occurs to me, I have a Sierra PSG of potential interest to you. Give me a call (I'm listed in the Greater Austin phone book) or e-mail me if you are able.

Here are some URL links to pictures of me playing the guitar. http://www.kevinfowler.com/on_the_road/willies/DSC01282.JPG http://www.kevinfowler.com/on_the_road/coupland2/coup10.jpg http://www.kevinfowler.com/on_the_roadhot/DSC01958.JPG http://www.kevinfowler.com/on_the_road/ropers2/glenn.gif http://www.kevinfowler.com/on_the_road/tinstar/DSC02568.JPG

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn
www.kevinfowler.com

[This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 28 January 2004 at 12:13 PM.]

Nick Reed · From: Russellville, KY USA

Theres that STUPID word again, "COPEDANT". I hate that word! What exactly is a COPEDANT? I checked in Websters Dictionary and there is no such word as a COPEDANT! Why do many of you refer to a COPEDANT? Do you think we could start using a term more easily inderstandable for un-educated types like myself, for instance "Pedal Set-Up". I know Paul Franklin likes it better, and if it's OK with Paul then it's OK with me.

Larry Phleger · From: DuBois, PA

I recommend the E9/B6 universal tuning set up the way Jeff Newman recommends. Get Jeff’s Universal tuning video. He really explains things so they are understandable. With this setup, you can use any instructional material out there for either C6 or E9. The C6 stuff is only one fret off, since you would be actually playing B6. Jeff also has a Universal book and tape that get you started on the 6th end of the tuning. A good choice IMHO

Aaron Garrett · From: Roslindale, Massachusetts, USA

If the missing D string is a big deal, and I think it is -- I like my D string -- then why don't more non-Sacred Steel players play 13 stringers? With the 12 string you don't have to damp the D string for strumming certain chords, but if you want a D string and a universal tuning that really can do pretty much anything you can get out of a D-10 then why not? It's less strings than 20. And if you start on it you'll never feel like an E9 player playing C6 or vice-versa.

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