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Topic: Comparing guitars; what do we want to know? |
Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 11:20 am |
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After seeing that Mullen/Ritt thread, I thought I might try to compile a list, table, or chart comparing the features of the different guitars out there. I started thinking of just the mechanical properties (MSA's clever pedal rod adjustment, Willy's brass ramped fingers, Emmons counterforce, Lone Star's carry-on push-pull et c), but then I thought the cosmetic features like Mullen's chromed endplates or marbled mica, whether they will build on a Giles cab).
I think weights of a 3&5 S-10 and an 8&7 D-10 should be there (SD and other configurations are rarely considered for weight, and I don't want to bug makers more than necessary).
Since Gary Carpenter is usually busy, if someone wants to give me some data on Rains, that'd be welcome.
Does anyone have some suggestions for criteria that should go into a tire-kicker's guide?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 12:16 pm
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I am less interested in mechanical differences than I am in sonic differences:
How 'whiney' is the decay of the note (some players love the whine, I hate it)
I have played quite a few all-pull steels, and only 3 did not exhibit it (Williams, Rains, ZB)
The worst one was my Carter, so we parted company.
How much cabinet drop does the steel have?
Modern steels don't usually have as much cabinet drop as the early steels, but it would be helpful to have a database if you are a potential purchaser. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 12:39 pm
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In that case, Richard, buy a Simmons. Pro-quailty machining pull-release guitars. I also like the pull-release tone.
As to your first question; that's almost a musical question. Frank Zappa said "writing about music is like dancing about architecture." And the manufacturers will say "it rings like a push-pull bell," as will their fans. Its detractors will say "It whines like a 7 year old!"
And probably varies from axe to axe, influenced by (probably) the tightness of the grain, the penetration of the glue in the joints, the torque on all the fasteners, and on and on.
Cabinet drop? I think that also kinda varies from axe to axe.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 12:42 pm
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A lot of these questions are irrelevant to experienced players, my opinion, or course. I think the currently built guitars are mostly very good, high quality instruments. And even among new guitars of the same brand, there's some variation from one to another. New players, have more questions. If someone is new, it might be a good idea to allow for a few years of playing time and a few less costly used guitars, before making a big investment. So, maybe the most important question, is: "how much does it cost?"
Last edited by Bill Moore on 5 Oct 2014 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 12:51 pm
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Bill, in that case, everybody but Fred Justice, GFI and Doug Earnest can just go fishing.
So the comparison chart STILL makes sense; what do you get for the extra money? Which is a fair question.
FWIW, a friend of mine spent an extra $500 on ordering his Zum with extra high polish and chrome plating on all exposed aluminum.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 1:08 pm
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| my thoughts, lane,are first of all what companies are currently functioning, and do they offer changer end split-tuning. ?! |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 1:42 pm
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Retail advertised price comparison for a standard S10 4x5, U12 7x5, D10 8x5.
Changer capability eg. 3u/3d
Since tone and sustain and 'action' seem to be difficult to treat objectively, perhaps indicating a famous artist or two that have 'famous' known songs where that tone can be found.
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 2 Aug 2014 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 1:55 pm
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Tom, after seeing Hartley's videos on Franklin, Justice, Bud, Rains, and probably some others, I am not sure even that helps. A well-made guitar will help a good musician sound like him or her Also borne out by all those records cut by Big E on myriad guitars.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 2:01 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Tom, after seeing Hartley's videos on Franklin, Justice, Bud, Rains, and probably some others, I am not sure even that helps. A well-made guitar will help a good musician sound like him or her Also borne out by all those records cut by Big E on myriad guitars. |
It would be problematic to do a satisfaction survey... |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 5:08 pm
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Height is very important to some players, as is the numbers of holes in the pullers, but 4 holes is plenty for me! As for myself, I hate slotted pullers, and would never buy another guitar with them. The same goes for stamped and bent sheet metal pullers, as they just look decidedly cheap. Every player has a "wish list", but I think a simple chart would rapidly progress into a book, if you listed every possible feature and difference.
For all the great steels made, I'm surprised that they all miss some really simple stuff...like a place to put your picks and bar, some height adjustment on the front, and multiple/movable pickups.  At a show once, one new steelmaker bragged about how everything was polished undermeath, but I also noticed that nothing had been deburred, the works were loaded with sharp edges and corners!? Many are still using bar stock for levers, and they polish it up real nice...but it seems they've never heard of a radius cutter to round the corners?
To be sure, there are some really nice steels out there, but they've still got a good ways to go, IMHO.  |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 5:43 pm
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Donny wants a Ben-Rom. Or a Weenick. Check.
Donny, I think you do indeed have some good points, but then you start down the road of subjective judgment calls, like "it plays well, but looks like it was machined by a badger with a file."
I THINK I could get things condensed into something a bit smaller than Greg's list of MSA features.
By "height," I assume you mean strings-to-bottom-of-endlpate? Floor to endplate should be custom built as a standard feature
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 9:20 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| ........As for myself, I hate slotted pullers, and would never buy another guitar with them. |
No offense, but I actually prefer slotted bell cranks. I hate pulling hitch-pins and e-clips to change bell crank leverage positions. I liked my old "Zum" bell-cranks as compared to the newer ones.
On the other hand, single arm bell-cranks are less cluttered and easier to align. So like all mechanics, it's a trade-off. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 10:15 pm
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same here. i like my old zum bellcranks...straight pull, easy position change, lotsa position options.
i guess that lets donny out for a new infinity, also. |
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John Palumbo
From:
Lansdale, PA.
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Posted 3 Aug 2014 1:09 am
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| My comments are purely cosmetic. I don't like seeing exposed screws or a or 2 piece tuning key head. On a single neck body guitar I like a slight step down behind the neck as in a Sho-Bud or MSA versus one flat surface as a Williams. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 3 Aug 2014 2:06 am
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Fair enough. But not worth space on a comparison table, since you can see them in a picture. I agree with you on the exposed screws and 2 piece keyhead, BTW. I also think cast endplates have a positive effect on tone, but I don't know who, other than Kevin, still uses them.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2014 5:32 am
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Tow topics I would consider for comparison are:
Cabinet drop.
And
Average resale value.
_________________
Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Aug 2014 5:35 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
By "height," I assume you mean strings-to-bottom-of-endlpate? Floor to endplate should be custom built as a standard feature |
No, I'm talking bottom of endplate to floor. Yes, I believe this height should be adjustable, up or down an inch, and it's not terribly complicated. The front legs on most all steels are already adjustable, simply have multiple attachment points for the tops of the pedal rods, and it's a done deal. You could set the height when you were setting up the guitar, and this would help accomodate for different footwear, or playing surfaces, as well as different players. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 3 Aug 2014 6:09 am
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Donny, if you raise the front legs, you'll raise the pedals, too, since clamping racks have to stay against the clutch (and bolt-thrus move even more due to the leverage).
I think that makes the MSA pedal height thing utter genius.
TBH, I've rarely bothered raising the front legs, partly because of the pedal height problem and partly because it's easier to do the rears and that's been enough.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 3 Aug 2014 6:30 am
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Kevin, cabinet drop on modern guitars is mostly minimal, and varies with individual guitars and players. I also doubt that the makers test all their guitars, and would probably also get tested with a light foot.
Resale values are terribly condition-dependent, and hard to track. And hardly aviation from dealers.
The genesis of this idea was all those threads asking "what's the difference between this new guitar and that one? "
So I think I want to focus on objective points of "What do I get for my money?"
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 3 Aug 2014 5:04 pm
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On comparing steels, I'm not sure, personally about that. Having not played many, I can only go by the reports on this forum or by personal conversations with said owners, who, own different types of steels.
My personal preference would be one that is reliable and not prone to breaking down or wearing out too quickly. My current steel is a U-12 ZumSteel and it's definitely a keeper, solid as a rock. Before that, I played an S-11 RusLer, which, was one hell of a workhorse. I've got so many hours and miles on that steel with never a problem or breakdown. It's definitely another keeper for sure. I chose them both for their aesthetics and their reliability. They're both beautiful looking steels and they both sound wonderful. I do tend to keep my equipment for a long time, when, I'm pleased with their playability and looks. Some people change their rigs like they change their socks, but, that's not me, if everything works right. There are many new steel on the market, that, ergonomically look very much the same with little differences. It's the dependability that varies, I think.
Weight seems to be a factor with some players today. It doesn't bother me yet, though. There are always ways of getting around that problem, so, it's not a factor with me. My ZumSteel weighs in at about the high 30's, my RusLer weighs about 50+, but, that's what hand trucks are for.
As for comfort and fit...... You can basically get used to any set up or adjust to suite you. Modern steels are very user friendly and are capable of alterations for personal preferences. I don't know about other instruments but, the pedal steel is a very personal instrument and making it fit is like wearing new shoes. They may fit tight to begin with, but, they'll stretch or vice versa to finally feel comfortable. I feel that it's a very personal choice and lots of thought and homework should be done before buying one. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 4 Aug 2014 3:21 am
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First thing: Will it handle my copedant. I have 3 strings with triple raises, one with a triple lower, tuned splits on 4 strings, and a wrist lever.
Second thing: How much does it weigh? I need to be able to carry it without breaking my back.
Third: How long is the wait time for a new one. 5-6 months is acceptable. 2 or more years is not.
In my case, it's a moot point. I am happy with what I've got, and have no plans to buy any more instruments.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 4 Aug 2014 3:34 am
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| John De Maille wrote: |
| There are many new steel on the market, that, ergonomically look very much the same with little differences. It's the dependability |
A lot of the makers have little features in them that set them apart, and those features/quirks/advances can, and should, play a role in deciding.
Note Mullen's chromed steel endplates (I don't know if they're cast or milled), Williams' brass fingers with the ramps (I think only Ben-Rom and Williams use brass), and MSA's unique pedal height feature.
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| I feel that it's a very personal choice and lots of thought and homework should be done before buying one. |
Indeed. That's why I think this list would make a good starting place.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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David Wright
From:
Pilot Point ,Tx USA.
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Posted 4 Aug 2014 4:00 am
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| How about the quick change pickup.. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 4 Aug 2014 4:10 am
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| David Wright wrote: |
| How about the quick change pickup.. |
A great feature. I feel this should be standard on every steel guitar.
I feel that the advantage of this is not so much that you can have a lot of different pickups, but that you can easily try out and compare different ones and a see which you prefer.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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David Wright
From:
Pilot Point ,Tx USA.
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Posted 4 Aug 2014 4:22 am
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To me it's the only way to compare pickups, it can be done during a song, hell, by the time you have to 'install" a pickup, "I" have forgotten what it sounded like 
On picking out a new steel, "I" think the first thing is , Does it catch your eye..if it does , then you look deeper in to it..all the steels out there now are good , they all sound as good as the guy playing it..or your a guy that picks a guitar because you "Hero" plays it...and if you buy it , you will sound just like him.. ..........opinions on steel are like BUTTS, everyone has one...  and this is mine....   |
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