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Topic: S vs. SD: Tone and Sustain |
Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 26 Jul 2014 1:00 pm |
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Have any of you compared the tone and sustain of an S vs. SD guitar of the same manufacturer.
Although i'm thinking 12 string uni, I'm pretty sure if there's a trend on 10 string guitars, it will be similar for a 12 string.
Maybe somebody can comment on the one and a half models..those make the most sense to me from a practical perspective, but not all manufacturers make those. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 26 Jul 2014 1:16 pm
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| I've had two single 10 push pull guitars which sounded (and sustained) every bit as good, if not better, than any of my D-10 push pulls |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 26 Jul 2014 6:21 pm
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My Williams SD-10 and S-10 were pretty much the same - I can't tell any difference. But the Williams S-10 is a "wide body", sort of half-way between an S-10 and an SD-10, which is perfect for stability, etc.
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Jul 2014 6:48 pm
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| I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't think the difference is enough to worry about. The way I see it, either can have ample tone and sustain for any playing situation that I could think of. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 26 Jul 2014 9:38 pm
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My thinking process was that if the cabinet plays much of a role in harmonics/resonance and sustain, there's twice as much wood per string in an SD vs S...
Also, the C6 necks on both of my d10's I would describe as sweet and succulent compared to the E9 neck as harder and more crisp by comparison. Thought maybe this was an important interaction, but with 20 strings.
If nobody is able to discern a difference, those wide body S guitars (I call them one and a half) would probably be my preferred size.
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 27 Jul 2014 8:39 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 Jul 2014 3:37 am
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I am not convinced that those differences are as large as, or larger than. the differences between guitars due to woodgrain differences or minute differences in fastener tension upon assembly.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 27 Jul 2014 8:04 am
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More wood doesn't necessarily equal better sustain- seems that heavy solid cabinet would keep the vibration in the strings and not let it dissipate into the cabinet, for more sustain but that light, responsive cabinets impart more of their tone to the sound but ....but I found my light guitars (Williams, GFI) to have much more sustain than heavy ones (Rains) and tone ...definitely a more complex question, that needs to include the entire structure in an answer...
Would be nice to hear from a pedal steel maker - they probably know the answer..
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Dwight Lewis
From:
Huntsville, Alabama
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Posted 27 Jul 2014 1:47 pm SD vs S
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My 2 cents: from the many guitars that I have played, the singles have had the best tone and sustain. I am also curious about wood necks vs aluminum necks. Or even a solid mounted pickup vs a floating pup.
Dwight
_________________
Dekley 7p4k(PRS-10C), BMI S12 5p5kn |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 28 Jul 2014 2:36 pm
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| Thanks for the input...still hoping to hear from many others...! |
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Cartwright Thompson
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Posted 28 Jul 2014 3:27 pm
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| As much as I love my two D -10 push pulls, I have owned or played several S-10's and all I can say is "there's something about a single neck". |
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Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 29 Jul 2014 4:34 am
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First of all I'm not a guitar builder and certainly no expert on steel guitars. My opinion is as others have stated there are more important factors that contribute to the sustain and tone of an instrument. Not the least of which is the players ability.
http://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm
It does not answer your question directly but there is a wealth of information (opinion) here.
I own both an S-12 and an SD-12. I have in the past owned both S-10 and SD-10.
Maybe it's just my level of experience and ability but IMHO I find little difference in the tone and sustain of an S vs. SD guitar.
There is a big difference to me in the ergonomics of an S-10 vs an SD-10 and those differences get amplified on a 12 string. I find that playing the S vs SD I have to adjust almost everything about my posture, hand positions, feet and legs.
_________________
Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.
I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 29 Jul 2014 10:07 am
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| I've never noticed any difference. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 31 Jul 2014 5:38 pm
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| Bump... |
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Daniel Policarpo
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Posted 1 Aug 2014 4:49 am
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| Ollin Landers wrote: |
| My opinion is as others have stated there are more important factors that contribute to the sustain and tone of an instrument. Not the least of which is the players ability. |
There are so many factors involved with acoustic instruments, and then you put a pickup on top of that and it creates an almost exponential array of options for experimentation.
I feel Ollin's point about the player's ability is the most important factor. Above the 15th fret it took me a little time to get the sustain I thought I should have. Now that I can tune the steel proper, and have (for the most part) established good posture and hand positioning, the sustain is right there all over the neck.
It seems that each steel likes its own little special tuning, too. A hair lower on these two strings, raise these by .20, etc. A well tuned steel has to be there for good sustain to be realized. The player's understanding of their instrument and musical ability seem to be the biggest factors.
Has anyone come across a dud they couldn't get right? |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 1 Aug 2014 6:17 am
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I'm trying to make a decision regarding an S vs. SD guitar body with their obvious tradeoffs. I am not soliciting opinions on my playing ability, although I know that input is made with the best intentions.
In spite of the considerable difference in body size, I find it amazing that most contributors conclude there is no significant difference in tone. |
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Daniel Policarpo
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Posted 1 Aug 2014 7:37 am
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I guess that was my first point. Each instrument is its own thing. Two pedal steels that are built one after the other to the exact same specs will have a difference in there, somehow. I think switching a pickup will have more control than the size of the body cabinet.
Whatever feels good and looks good will have a very definitive effect on how you hear tone. Some of us know that black just sounds better, but others will argue red makes for the richest tone. Seriously, I do think visual perception plays a great deal on how we hear things. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 1 Aug 2014 10:28 am
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In my experience playing SD 10's and S10's from the same builder I found that the SD10'sounded a little better to me. More focused, clear, stronger midrange. The S10's had a sorta "doinky" feel and sound. Kinda like a plastic knife compared to a steel blade. They don't quite hold there own in a cluttered mix or super loud stage. Both will get the job done but to my ear the SD10 has a slight edge.
This only applies to all pull guitars. Old push pull guitars are a different story.
_________________
Bob |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Aug 2014 12:43 pm
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In theory, the size of an instrument's body affects tone only if the body is designed to resonate, or if it resonates unintentionally. A steel guitar is designed not to resonate, but to be rigid and not to dissipate any string energy in the structure. A wider body may well be more rigid than the equivalent narrow one.
In practice, some energy will be dissipated, and the frequencies at which this loss is significant we perceive as tone.
But who said: "Sound comes from the hands"?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 1 Aug 2014 1:34 pm
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Funny how things come full circle, Ian. About a year ago I naively made a post asserting that most of the tone from a steel is not related to body resonance, and I got (politely rebuked at length..haha) with many suggesting that cabinet resonance is the dominating factor governing tone...and I concluded maybe I was on the wrong track thinking it was mostly about pickup selection.
So I've been spending a lot of time thinking about body resonance as if it was significant, only to find out that there is barely a perceptible difference between S and SD.
On balance however, I have two more steels than I had last year, if only purchased to enjoy the differences between them. There are clearly audible differences, particularly when played acoustically, between the guitars.
There are also trends that I see between how an E9th neck sounds and feels compared to the C6.
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 1 Aug 2014 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Aug 2014 2:02 pm
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The basic changes on the E9 are mainly raises, and on the C6 mainly lowers. So the characteristic sounds of the E9 are tight and bright, and of the C6 mellow and relaxed (literally). Apart from the closer voicing of the C6, the strings themselves lead a different life.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jim Priebe
From:
Queensland, Australia - R.I.P.
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Posted 1 Aug 2014 3:24 pm
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I don't think it is accurate to genaralise on this. Each guitar is it's own beast.
I have a S10 and a SD12 (same brand and anothe SD (not quite double) 12. The last one has the least sustain but a sweet tone. The S10 is very vibrant and just 'jumps out' and has great sustain. The SD12 has great sustain and is more mellow - all different.
Sustain is a bit of a deceptive characteristic. If you put the/a note up on an oscilloscope the big variation from guitar to guitar is the 'decay' curve (how the note sustains).
The classic difference here is exampled by comparing a Gibson Les Paul and a Fender Stratocaster (not steels but the issue is the same). The Gibson (generally) sustains in a flat curve while the Fender has am early drop (in the decay curve) but actually sustains just as long. This is generally attributed to body and neck woods and the totally different neck attachments.
I guess my point is there are so many variables apart from S v SD. I do know the SD or D is more comfortable to sit and play all night and the leg/feet to pedals and levers is more comfortable (for me) on double body but the S is great when pack up and lift/carry time comes.
_________________
Priebs GFI ('09)Short-Uni10. GFI ('96)Short-Uni SD11. ('86)JEM U12
www.steelguitardownunder.com |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 1 Aug 2014 4:33 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| The basic changes on the E9 are mainly raises, and on the C6 mainly lowers. So the characteristic sounds of the E9 are tight and bright, and of the C6 mellow and relaxed (literally). Apart from the closer voicing of the C6, the strings themselves lead a different life. |
I understand those differences relative to the pulls, a lot of what i'm hearing is in the sounds with no pedals. It's either the way C6 strings are wound, or its simply the way the upper neck resonates compared to the lower one. i've never done the test of stringing the necks up with opposite stringsets just to gather some data.
In both cases with my D10's I prefer the tone and feel of the C6 neck. 'succulent' is the term that comes to mind.
Jim Priebe: yes, my MSA is a strat, and my Shobud is a Les Paul...crazy thing though, the sc is on the bud and the hb is on the MSA, but in terms of sustain envelope, they couldn't hit that analogy better.
Sorry for the thread drift.  |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 1:57 am
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"Succulent" is a great word and I shall work it into as many of my posts as possible. I still think it comes from the closer voicing of the C6, and yes I am still drifting - sorry and out.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jim Priebe
From:
Queensland, Australia - R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 2:07 am
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Tom
The electric guitar maker gurus tell us that every time you make a join of woods (or any material) there is a filtering process of frequencies that get transferred through that join. To avoid or minimise this the best possible fit & glues (for wood) or welding (for metals) are/is needed.
I doubt the characteristics you mention of your MSA and 'Bud are due totally to the p'ups but more to the construction and woods. There are a lot of components screwed and bolted together in most pedal steels.
So what you mentioned is really not a drift off post but just highlights the many possible variants apart from S or SD or D bodies.
_________________
Priebs GFI ('09)Short-Uni10. GFI ('96)Short-Uni SD11. ('86)JEM U12
www.steelguitardownunder.com |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 2 Aug 2014 4:23 am
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
| The S10's had a sorta "doinky" feel and sound. |
Doinky !  Love it... !!!
Here's my Doinky Pro-1 which is now my primary axe. I guess I never considered the Doinky factor, I just wanted an S10 of which I still have to play in tune, on pitch and in key with more correct notes than incorrect notes !
Love it Bob !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders , Eastman Mandolin ,
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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