| Author |
Topic: Fender Concert Amp Questions |
Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
|
Posted 16 Jul 2014 5:45 am |
|
So a bandmate has a 1962 Fender Concert amp. With 2 Milkman amps, I'm not exactly looking for an addition, but I would like to know: how does the Concert amp fare with pedal steel? I don't play lead guitar, so this is strictly about headroom, tone, volume, etc. for steel.
I may get to try out the amp, but don't want the guy hauling it to rehearsal if it simply wouldn't be my cup of tea.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix.
Last edited by Daniel Morris on 23 Jul 2014 5:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
 |
Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
|
Posted 16 Jul 2014 5:38 pm
|
|
| I like them a lot, does he want to ship it to Oregon? |
|
|
|
Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
|
Posted 16 Jul 2014 6:25 pm
|
|
I don't think he's going to ship, as he isn't even sure about selling it. I'm just trying to learn more about the amp with pedal steel.
If he does want to sell it and ship it, I can post it here for him. Otherwise, I get first dibs.
More info, please?
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
|
|
|
John Dowden
From:
Louisiana, USA
|
Posted 16 Jul 2014 7:07 pm
|
|
Pretty sure they're around the same wattage as a Bassman so in the 40 watt range. I haven't read up much on them but I know they're one of the most underrated, and still affordable amps, from the Fender brownface era. The tremolo on them is pretty damn good but I don't think they came standard with reverb.
Headroom wise for steel I think they're a little on the low end unless you're playing smaller clubs or mic'ed gigs. |
|
|
|
James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
|
Posted 17 Jul 2014 3:15 pm
|
|
The Concert puts out 40 watts ....Not a lot of clean headroom , but a very full, thick , tone to it when pushed ....It has a Harmonic Vibrato which is one of the best vibrato's that Fender ever put in an amp ( IMHO) ..... They have a nice overdriven tone when pushed for guitar , or for steel if that is what you are looking for ..... It has 4-10 inch speakers which is up to the individual whether or not they like 10's for pedal steel ..... Bolt in an efficient 12 or 15 inch speaker and it would do better for steel ....No reverb or effects loop .... Still a very classic sounding amp ....Darker and thicker sounding than a Blackface amp ... As John D said, not a lot of clean headroom, but the breakup is very sweet !!.....JIm
PS....I've had many amps in the past and still own quite a few ....>The Concert is one that I will NEVER get rid of .....Jim |
|
|
|
James Quackenbush
From:
Pomona, New York, USA
|
Posted 17 Jul 2014 3:17 pm
|
|
The Concert puts out 40 watts ....Not a lot of clean headroom , but a very full, thick , tone to it when pushed ....It has a Harmonic Vibrato which is one of the best vibrato's that Fender ever put in an amp ( IMHO) ..... They have a nice overdriven tone when pushed for guitar , or for steel if that is what you are looking for ..... It has 4-10 inch speakers which is up to the individual whether or not they like 10's for pedal steel ..... Bolt in an efficient 12 or 15 inch speaker and it would do better for steel ....No reverb or effects loop .... Still a very classic sounding amp ....Darker and thicker sounding than a Blackface amp ... As John D said, not a lot of clean headroom, but the breakup is very sweet !!.....JIm
PS....I've had many amps in the past and still own quite a few ....>The Concert is one that I will NEVER get rid of .....Jim |
|
|
|
Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
|
Posted 17 Jul 2014 10:30 pm
|
|
Harmonic trem - *if* it works properly - is worth the price of admission alone.
Not a fan of 10" speakers for steel but you can always get a replacement 15" combo cab made and store the original.
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
|
|
|
John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 20 Jul 2014 12:43 pm
|
|
"It has a Harmonic Vibrato which is one of the best vibrato's that Fender ever put in an amp ( IMHO)"
Awesome Vibrate-Oh! I have a '62 Super. Haven't tried it for steel. I like to leave the Vibrate-Oh! on, with the Speed all the way down, and the Depth around 3. A wonderful, wonderful sound! |
|
|
|
Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
|
Posted 23 Jul 2014 5:35 am
|
|
Thanks for all the replies, gents. I got to try out the Concert amp at band rehearsal, and it was indeed a very nice sound!
Here's the thing: the amp is from 1962, but apparently has had some updates. There are Mojo-Tone 10" speakers, the Tolex may have been replaced (it's in impeccable condition), the original power cord was replaced with a newer and longer one, the caps were redone and there may have been other mods done. To those of you who know amps (ATTN: Tim), is there a reasonably easy way to find out if the transformers were replaced? As I know next to nothing about such matters, I need to find out all I can, as a buddy is very interested - IF there are enough original parts. I may be able to have a local tech give it a once-over, but with the knowledge base present on the Forum, I simply have ask here first.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
|
|
|
Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
|
Posted 23 Jul 2014 7:17 am
|
|
ask your friend this:
do you want the amp to be original, or do you want it to work?
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
|
|
|
Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
|
Posted 23 Jul 2014 7:27 am
|
|
Good point, Tim! From what I've found, this amp would cost a lot more if it had all original parts. As it is, it's a VERY fine sounding amp. Haven't noodled with the tremolo/vibrato section yet, though that's just icing on the cake for me. I was asked: if I bought the Concert amp, would I sell my Milkman? Not likely.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix.
Last edited by Daniel Morris on 24 Jul 2014 10:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 23 Jul 2014 10:45 am
|
|
My main higher-power gigging amp is a '57 Fender tweed 5E6 Bassman 4x10, for steel and guitar. This is the two-input model with two rectifier tubes. A '62 Concert is, at a lot of levels, similar - same speaker configuration, same general power level - but there are obviously some significant differences in the preamp and power circuit, tremelo,and so on. I love this type of amp for both pedal steel and guitar - maybe not so much for the real low notes on C6, but for E9. There's a harmonic richness, without getting ratty, in these amps that's just missing (to me) in even later Fenders, and certainly anything solid-state.
I have played a bunch of 4x10 Concerts, I really do like them. A bit cleaner than the Bassman (e.g., solid-state rectifier), and as others have said, the 'Harmonic Vibrato' is killer. I would not hesitate to use one for dual-duty guitar/pedal-steel if the band/room needed that kind of headroom (I often use a Deluxe Reverb for lower-volume things).
On the mods - I'm fine with modified amps as long as the cost is commensurate. Mods like replaced speakers, replaced Tolex, and especially replaced transformers (it's pretty much impossible to find vintage-correct replacements) ding the value significantly.
The current 'book-value' of a '62 brown Concert is $2300-2900 in excellent original condition. That 'commodity value' is critically dependent on originality and condition. I don't think that normal maintenance like filter caps and the occasional replacement of drifted components makes any difference at all. IMO, that is all within the scope of excellent original condition. It would affect 'mint' - mint is showroom-new condition, and is generally irrelevant for vintage amps.
IMO, replaced speakers aren't such a big deal - I would decrement about 1/2 to 2/3 of the cost of finding vintage-correct replacements (the speakers in there are worth something). There are guys out there selling period-correct speakers (even sets of them), but they're expensive. I wouldn't bother to get new speakers, but if you don't want to lose your shirt if you decide to sell it, that should be factored into the buying price
But IMO, a recovered amp, value-wise, is comparable to a refinished guitar. The general rule-of-thumb is that value is about half the price of an excellent-condition original one - so from a value perspective, it is important to figure out if that covering is original or not. It could be original - if the amp was well-cared for, it could be - that brown Tolex holds up pretty well. Many times, the brown Tolex peels, but if it's glued back properly, I don't think it affects value at all. The repro brown Tolex is pretty smooth, and you should be able to see some signs of a recover if you look carefully.
IMO, replaced transformers are a real big deal to a lot of people, since an original period-correct one is difficult-to-impossible to source and both the power and output transformers are integral to the circuit design and (especially the OT) sound. Most people I know will decrement value at least 20-30% for any replaced transformers, and many buyers just aren't interested in old valuable tube amps with replaced transformers at all. IMO, this is more and more critical for the more expensive vintage amps like the 'holy-grail' higher-power tweed, white, brown, and certain of the high-profile blackface amps like Princeton/Deluxe/Vibrolux Reverbs. If someone is gonna drop serious coin on a holy-grail type amp, they want it all-straight, no excuses. Everything else is strictly 'player-grade', and should be priced accordingly. My opinion - if you want to pay top-dollar, it is possible to find examples in that kind of condition.
To evaluate the transformers, flip the amp over, or better yet, take the chassis out of the cab, which I would do for any valuable amp like this to evaluate is condition and originality, and look at the codes on the transformers. E.g., a Schumacher transformer would have a date code 606yww, where y = last digit of the production year (you should see a 2, or perhaps a 1 if it's early 1962) and ww is the 2-digit week number out of 52. Other transformer manufacturer codes are here - http://www.unclespot.com/transformerEIAcodes.html - Schumachers were heavily used, but not for everything. This page has a post with the Schumacher/Fender transformer part numbers - http://forums.vintageamps.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=93213.
Of course, another critical variable is how it sounds. Sometimes, people will pay significantly more (or less) than this type of 'commodity-analysis' type of price if the amp does (or does not) have 'the magic sound'.
My take, but I have dealt with a lot of vintage amps over the years. |
|
|
|
Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
|
Posted 23 Jul 2014 11:30 am
|
|
Wow, thanks very much, Dave!
I did get the numbers off the transformers.
125P7A 606235 original, right?
NSC022899 EIA 606-949 non-original?
As I say, I'm quite dumb on this stuff, and don't know exactly how to read the charts, or even if Schumacher means original material. You could PM me if it's a hassle to post here. Much obliged.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 23 Jul 2014 2:36 pm
|
|
The 125P7A Schumacher power transformer is original for a 6G6A (ca. 62) white-Tolex Bassman or 6G4A (ca. 62) brown-Tolex Super. So even though the 'listed' power transformer for the '62 6G12A (ca.62) is the 67233, I'll bet it's original and correct. They were really messing around with circuits and components back then. Remember how all American cars from that late-50s through early 60s period had to have a new sheet-metal 'facelift' every September, no matter what? The date is certainly correct, and the power section for the Concert is very similar to that for that period's Bassman and Super.
But the output transformer is not original. If you look at the Schumacher/Fender number translator, you'll see that the 022899 Fender output transformer number corresponds to the Schumacher 125A29A transformer, which you'll see is the output transformer for AB763 (blackface) Dual Showman and Twin Reverb amps, plus for later silverface Twin Reverbs, right up through the early 70s. So what you probably have there is a '69 Twin Reverb output transformer, which is correct for a 4-6L6 amp into a 4-Ohm load. This translates for a 2-6L6 amp into an 8-Ohm load, which is emphatically not correct for a 4x10 Concert. A stock Concert amp should have the same output transformer as a 4x10 tweed Bassman, the 45249, which takes 2-6L6 to 2 Ohms (4 8-Ohm speakers in parallel).
I assume from the power transformer that this is probably a 6G12A Concert circuit, although it might possibly be labeled 6G12 - check that on the tube chart on the inside side-wall of the map.
So the speakers are replaced and the output transformer is not only replaced but wrong, and really needs the right type of transformer. The only thing remaining is to figure out if the brown Tolex is original. It may sound wanky now due to the wrong output transformer, but it may sound OK. But I would argue it at least needs the correct 2-6L6 to 2-Ohm output transformer, unless the speakers are, let's say, 16 or 32 Ohms instead of 8 Ohms; or perhaps 4 8-Ohm speakers wired in series-parallel (which would give a total 8-Ohm load impedance). I think that a reissue-type 4x10 tweed Bassman output transformer would work fine in this amp, they're readily available. If you want max clean for pedal steel, get a big-iron transformer for that application, as long as it mounts correctly in the holes (hopefully they didn't drill new holes for that Twin Reverb OT). A blackface/silverface Super Reverb output transformer would be fine also.
My opinions on value: if the Tolex is original, I would deduct at least $800-1000 off the retail book value if it's otherwise in excellent condition, and deduct more if it's less than excellent. If the Tolex isn't original but the amp is in good shape otherwise, I wouldn't pay more than half the low-end of the retail book value, and less if it doesn't sound stellar. If the Tolex isn't original and it's a beater, I would base my decision strictly on how it sounds and probably less than a grand unless it really sounds tremendous and you can't live without it. Yeah, not scientific, but every once in a while I run into an amp that is all wrong on paper, but I hafta have it anyway.
My take. |
|
|
|
Daniel Morris
From:
Westlake, Ohio, USA
|
Posted 23 Jul 2014 2:41 pm
|
|
Thanks again, Dave. The band mate who said he wanted the amp if I didn't ran the numbers with his amp guy, and it confirms what you're saying, and what I suspected: one original, one not, but I didn't know the output was actually for a different amp.
Ah, well - it still does sound nice, but that's a deal killer. Again, my sincere thanks for your time.
_________________
1979 MSA U12 Pedal Steel
1982 Kline U12 Pedal steel
2019 Sierra U12 Pedal Steel
2011 Bear Creek MK Weissenborn
Milkman 40W Mini amp w/Telonics 15" speaker.
Dr. Z Surgical Steel w/TT 15" speaker.
Frenzel MB-50 head.
Spaceman, Empress, Eventide, Pigtronix. |
|
|
|
Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
|
Posted 23 Jul 2014 7:04 pm
|
|
If the speakers are 8ohm and wired series/parallel for 8ohms then the output transformer will work just fine. Definitely don't pay collector bux for this amp, but it should bring at least $1000 in good working condition. It would be worth double that if it were original.
_________________
New FB Page: Lap Steel Licks And Stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/195394851800329 |
|
|
|
Dennis Olearchik
From:
Newtown, PA
|
Posted 3 Aug 2014 1:33 pm
|
|
I have a brownface Concert and luv the sound. The only amp that I ever liked better was a brownface Bandmaster.
I'm assuming that b/c of their age, they're not easily replaced, they don't have tons of clean headroom, etc., they're not an ideal amp for the working PS guitarist. |
|
|
|
