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Topic: servo bender tele |
Greg Spence
From:
Union, MO
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Posted 8 Jul 2014 5:49 pm |
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Here's a new idea for bender for guitars using servo motors activated by pedals...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSQ9Dg65EFo
_________________
MSA "The Universal" - Peavey Nashville 112 - Fender Mustang III amp - and way too many guitars |
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Bill Liscomb
From:
MA
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Posted 8 Jul 2014 6:00 pm
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| Dang! I have a bunch of R/C stuff laying around... |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2014 6:20 pm
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| That's doable. You'd only need two ( and maybe only one ) of those servos per string. The rest is software. |
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Stephen Williams
From:
from Wales now in Berkeley,Ca, USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2014 9:52 pm
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| AFAIK The Autotune guitar setup can retune on the fly ie compensate for problems in ET. Works w/piezo pickup but can't be too far away for psg. |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 9 Jul 2014 1:34 am
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My experiments a few years back sent me away from R/C servos - there was too much jitter on the output. Maybe that points to a poorly engineered servo, although the pulse width fed to it was very stable.
I concluded that screwjack-type mechanisms were better for this application, and in the one guitar on the market using this technology that I know of, that's what they use.
I did a concept study for a PSG: elements included moving the changer to the left end of the guitar to suppress magnetic noise as far as possible - the pickup would otherwise register the motor movements - a wireless-linked foot-pedal board, non-contact pedal/lever position measurement (Hall effect devices and accelerometers) and a colour LCD with touch screen as a user interface in the centre of the pad on an SD10.
The idea was that one could go from a Day setup to an Emmons at the touch of a single button, likewise switch between saved custom copedents. I decided that I really ought to go the whole hog and have it self-tuning because strings would detune with temperature changes.
Time didn't allow me to take it to the state where I could take it out to demo it, but in the future who knows? If I don't somebody else will. A retirement project maybe.
The greatest opposition came from those who didn't understand it was still the player playing, the only difference was the linkage between foot pedal and changer finger. You would still get the dynamics and tone of a vibrating string, the sound would be unaffected. You could even take care of those annoying compromises between notes on just intonation and equal tempered scales.
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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Geoff Noble
From:
Scotland
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Posted 9 Jul 2014 2:00 am
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That sounds really interesting Will. I suppose you would need to recreate the mechanical "feel" that you get when playing a conventional Pedal Steel on any interface used (feet & knees).
You would also have to be able to sense a movement over time, i.e. to get a bend, so I guess you would need to use A/D conversion on each pedal/lever to get an appropriate resolution on the string movement, i.e on/off would not do it.
Just thinking aloud here, but don't think it's an impossible task, just a lot of experimentation to get it right.
_________________
"Nothing can ever be wrong about music" - D Allman
"There is no bad music, only music you don't like" - Me
YTube- http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFqsA-Ahlgr2Z2sw71WJHGg/videos
SCloud - https://soundcloud.com/just-jef/tracks |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2014 3:13 am
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meh.. It left me cold.. The guy is a wonderful player, and his skill in design and building such a system is impressive to say the least, but it just somehow sounded sterile/mechanical in some way.. I just wasn't feeling it at all.
However, when a good Parsons/White player like Marty Stuart plays, I get goosebumps.. I think the servos take some of the "emotion" and feel out of the playing, making it sound bland somehow.. I dunno... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 9 Jul 2014 4:30 am
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Geoff, you're right, A/D conversion is absolutely needed, with resolution to 10 bits or better. But any half-decent controller e.g. AtMEGA 2560 would do that. Simple switches don't allow player interaction with the instrument, can't control the rate at which the note bends, etc. Oh, and "feel" is easily produced: all you need is constant or rising-rate spring opposition to the movement. And you don't get the clunky extras that arise from slop in the mechanism.
Bob, the key element in this is direct connection between player and instrument. It's vital. We're on the same page there. But the connection doesn't have to be physical. Plenty of high performance aircraft pilots fly planes to do all sorts of advanced manoeuvres without a physical connection. Car drivers drive by wire. When was the last time you drove a car with a direct link between the gas pedal and the throttle butterflies? What is vital is that the player should control the rate and manner in which the notes bend. With the system I describe, you get that. If you didn't look underneath, you wouldn't know there was no direct mechanical linkage. All you'd know is that the response was silky smooth, and totally repeatable.
Something like this would have to be very easy to build in production quantities to stand any chance on the market, but as an exercise I believe it's eminently do-able. The acid test would be whether someone like you would be able to tell the difference blindfold! 
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 9 Jul 2014 4:30 am
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Double post removed - crappy internet link!
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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Greg Spence
From:
Union, MO
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2014 9:29 am
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| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
meh.. It left me cold.. The guy is a wonderful player, and his skill in design and building such a system is impressive to say the least, but it just somehow sounded sterile/mechanical in some way.. I just wasn't feeling it at all.
However, when a good Parsons/White player like Marty Stuart plays, I get goosebumps.. I think the servos take some of the "emotion" and feel out of the playing, making it sound bland somehow.. I dunno... bob |
Maybe, but not really likely. They're gonna be different players. What would be interesting is to have Marty Stuart drive it and tell him/us what isn't good about it. I am pretty sure that a servo bender can be made to work exactly like a Parsons B-bender, but that it might be more trouble than it's worth. |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2014 9:47 am
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| Will Cowell wrote: |
Geoff, you're right, A/D conversion is absolutely needed, with resolution to 10 bits or better. But any half-decent controller e.g. AtMEGA 2560 would do that. Simple switches don't allow player interaction with the instrument, can't control the rate at which the note bends, etc. Oh, and "feel" is easily produced: all you need is constant or rising-rate spring opposition to the movement. And you don't get the clunky extras that arise from slop in the mechanism.
Bob, the key element in this is direct connection between player and instrument. It's vital. We're on the same page there. But the connection doesn't have to be physical. Plenty of high performance aircraft pilots fly planes to do all sorts of advanced manoeuvres without a physical connection. Car drivers drive by wire. When was the last time you drove a car with a direct link between the gas pedal and the throttle butterflies? What is vital is that the player should control the rate and manner in which the notes bend. With the system I describe, you get that. If you didn't look underneath, you wouldn't know there was no direct mechanical linkage. All you'd know is that the response was silky smooth, and totally repeatable.
Something like this would have to be very easy to build in production quantities to stand any chance on the market, but as an exercise I believe it's eminently do-able. The acid test would be whether someone like you would be able to tell the difference blindfold! |
Assuming you want to use a changer ( I think you would ), for a ten-string that's 20 servos. "Easy" is kinda no longer on the table...
I've used servos that "go negative" - in that case, that'd be 10 servos if you're clever about things. I'm just not that familiar with that size parts and what is available ( the servos I drive are much larger). |
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