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Topic: Windex removed Paint from Fret Board |
Greg Johnson
From:
Greencastle, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2014 4:27 pm |
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So I was changing strings tonight and was cleaning etc. Sprayed windex on my Fretboard, (done this a thousand times with other guitars) and wiped away a chunk of the paint. Want to talk about a couple adjectives leaving my mouth. So I called Colorado and ordered a new one. Watch what you use guys, some guitars obviously can't take being cleaned.
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MSA CLassic SD-10
92 Emmons LII
79 Super Pro
Quilter TT
Evans FET 500
Fender Twin 65 RI
American Takimine |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2014 6:24 pm
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I guess I have always used guitar cleaner. It never crossed my mind to try anything else.
I stand warned! Tough way to learn...ouch!
Thanks for the heads up.
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RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer |
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Edward Rhea
From:
Medford Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2014 6:43 pm
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That's so unfortunate...I consider myself lucky, as I was warned to never use any cleaners w/ammonia. I was informed that it can/will pit the cast aluminium...never would have guessed that it could remove paint as you've experienced. I'm interested to hear of any other chemical cleaners a steel player should avoid?
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“TONESNOB†|
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Per Berner
From:
Skovde, Sweden
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 1:48 am
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| I'd stay away from any polish with silicone in it... |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 6:19 am
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| Warm water on an old cotton t-shirt rag always works for me. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 6:33 am
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| I've used a Teflon based auto polish for years on my Franklin. Has not damaged anything, including the fretboards, polished aluminum and mica. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 7:02 am
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Greg, on a semi-related note, I found windex did that to the painted surface of a cooktop where the paint had gotten greasy (the area where the control knobs are was painted over the stainless steel).
Just came right up. I assume the grease bonded with and softened the paint.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 7:55 am
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| Exactly the same experience, Lane. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 8:23 am
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Windex.
I seldom use it. Did the paint soften or dissolve? If it came off as a solid flake, it probably wasn't the Windex. The paint may have lost it's adhesion to the fretboard. As Ed as said, and as Jim Sliff has been adamant about, no ammonia products on aluminum.
Another thing about Windex,,,, IT'S BLUE! It will dye wood blue if it gets into a chip or a crack. And you can't get it out!
Having said that, I use it on my black porcelain stove top. Works very well. |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 9:31 am
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I have used Windex on every guitar I have ever owned and had absolutely no problems with it. But I spray and wipe immediately.
Just goes to show... |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 10:01 am
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http://www.thescienceforum.com/chemistry/6093-ammonia-al.html
"Between polishings, for cleaning purposes avoid using brighteners or ammonia based cleaning products, mild soap and water is best for the SHINE."
"Aluminium is extremely reactive, one thing you learn in chemistry is that the only reason it doesn't spontaneously combust / turn to dust is that it that is rapidly acquires a coating of (protective oxide).
But basic solutions, including aqueous ammonia can get past this and corrode the metal" |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 10:28 am Re: Windex removed Paint from Fret Board
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| Greg Johnson wrote: |
| So I was changing strings tonight and was cleaning etc. Sprayed windex on my Fretboard, (done this a thousand times with other guitars) and wiped away a chunk of the paint. |
if the boards were actually silkscreened, as they most were in the 60's-90's - windex should not have harmed them - that ink is pretty tough when cured. i think these days, with all the EPA regulations, they have weakened the formulations and its not as durable. on another note, many are now printed fretboards, totally different, and they wont take chemicals at all. i dont know without seeing it - but some of the new 'vinyl' fretboards are printed because they can be done in short runs of say 10-20 where as silkscreened you need to have a run of 250+ to make it feasible.
then again, some silkscreen runs are not cured properly or didnt bond and so they are not as durable. i had tried to clean some old sho bud fretboards and the screenprint came off way too easily.
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 10:52 am
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If the aluminum is in good shape, Windex seems to have very little or no effect, and it does a good job of cleaning off nicotine, dirt, and oil or grease. (You can verify this yourself, by simply spraying Windex on a piece of aluminum foil.) But if the aluminum is scratched or has begun to oxidize, then it may cause degradation. The only way I could get any noticeable reaction was to make a dish-shaped piece of aluminum foil, pour a little Windex in it, and let it sit overnight. Now, admittedly, this is kind of extreme, but it does show that very long exposures of aluminum to many cleaners (except those that are petroleum-based, like naptha) may cause a problem.
As with using any chemical to clean a surface, it's advisable to try it on a small area first.  Nothing beats first-hand experimentation and revelation. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 10:59 am
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I use nothing but Windex to clean my guitars and have never had any problem. Wonder how that happened with the fret board?
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 11:52 am Aluminum and Ammonia are NOT compatible
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| Quote: |
New post Posted Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:52 am Reply with quote
If the aluminum is in good shape, Windex seems to have very little or no effect, and it does a good job of cleaning off nicotine, dirt, and oil or grease. (You can verify this yourself, by simply spraying Windex on a piece of aluminum foil.) But if the aluminum is scratched or has begun to oxidize, then it may cause degradation. The only way I could get any noticeable reaction was to make a dish-shaped piece of aluminum foil, pour a little Windex in it, and let it sit overnight. Now, admittedly, this is kind of extreme, but it does show that very long exposures of aluminum to many cleaners (except those that are petroleum-based, like naptha) may cause a problem.
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These anecdotal "tests" ("seems to have..."; "may cause degradation"; "the only way I could get..."; "except those that are petroleum based..."), with all respect, are meaningless - the last one dangerous, as "petroleum-based" covers a range of solvent types from naphtha (relatively harmless to even lacquer finishes) to M.E.K., M.I.B.K. and others that will destroy adjacent plastics, most finishes and remove *protective* clear coats (often invisible to the naked eye) from aluminum.
The quoted post was well-intentioned - but technically flawed. No insults or blame being thrown on the poster - most consumers just don';t know this stuff, some get lucky, some are dealing with aluminum that has a protective coating or plating, and some of the damage that results may take some time to become easily visible.
The fact is there is a chemical reaction between aluminum and ammonia (and for the record, aluminum foil is a quite different alloy from that used to make rigid parts.).
Many aluminum products receive a clear coat or go through an anodizing process; Bare aluminum, however, forms a layer of aluminum oxide upon exposure to air - this oxidized layer is also what is reactive with ammonia. Remove the aluminum oxide, you remove the corrosion resistance, especially resistance to corrosion due to contact of dissimilar metals (i you are not familiar with that you should be - instruments constructed largely of metal parts require contact protection between differing types or galvanic action will occur - essentially a battery is created, and that "battery" is corrosive.
It's difficult to recognize coated vs uncoated aluminum, so it's tough to determine which can safely be cleaned with ammonia-based cleaners (Windex et al) and which can't - the corrosion and pitting can take place slowly or quickly depending on the particular alloy, and in some cases "wiping it off quickly" (even rinsing with water) will do absolutely no good.
For these reasons it's far safer to avoid ammoniated cleaners - there are so many alternatives that don't react with aluminum (and/or others metals) that there's simply no logical reason to take chances with ammoniated products.
(FWIW I spent 35 years in the special coatings, paint, sealant, waterproofing and corrosion control industry and still have my test equipment, solvent kits and reference materials used in corrosion control/prevention and surface testing).
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Greg Johnson
From:
Greencastle, Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 11:59 am
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Here is some futher info. The guitar is a 96. The fretboard was either painted or silk screened on aluminum. Per Mike they quit using that process and has went to a newer upgraded deal. I have used windex on everything I own at one time or another and not had a problem. It was the Windex Multi-Surface (yellow) which I thought was no Ammonia. But the end result is 36.00 for a new fret board cause this one is missing 1 thru 3. They came off looking like shoe polish on my rag.
_________________
MSA CLassic SD-10
92 Emmons LII
79 Super Pro
Quilter TT
Evans FET 500
Fender Twin 65 RI
American Takimine |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 2:39 pm
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I wonder if the guitar saw much smoky barroom gigs. Nicotine deposits might soften paint like kitchen grease apparently did.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2014 2:54 pm
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Well, the best thing I've ever found for removing mung and atmospheric stuff like nicotine, is Maguiare's Pro swirl remover 2.0. Won't damage a finish, doesn't remove the patina of age, and just works great!
Before;
After
And that's just cleaned. Not waxed yet. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Jul 2014 4:51 am
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Jim, I respect your opinion, but will continue to use what is convenient and works well for me. For the past 42 years, I've worked at a company that has one of the largest plating operations in the eastern United States. We do everything from simple chromating to gold plating, and our operations are both airframe and space certified, so I didn't just fall off the back of a turnip truck, or "google" some information on aluminum and Windex. 
You see, I'm an experimenter and somewhat of a non-conformist at heart, so when some expert tells me something shouldn't be used in a certain application (whether it's a cleaner, a pot-pedal, or a solid-state amplifier) I usually do my own "testing and trying" to form my own opinion, rather than blindly relying on someone else's.  |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2014 6:29 am
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John, did that swirl remover eat the holes in your shoes?
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2014 6:32 am
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Bill!
It's Summer! Time for sandals and Crocs! Be happy I wasn't barefoot! Old man feet can be scary! 8^) |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2014 7:10 am
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I know what you mean John!
In the for what it's worth column. I remember reading about a test done back in the seventies, that after extensive testing, they had found that 500 diet soft drinks a day could possibly cause bladder cancer. Seems they had force fed lab rats the equivalent of 500 ten ounce diet soft drinks and some of them developed bladder cancer.
So maybe that's the case with Windex, it just takes a lot of it for a while and then BOOM your aluminum turns to dust!
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Kevin Raymer
From:
Chalybeate, Kentucky, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2014 7:17 pm
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In my big fat Greek wedding the movie winded was good for everything...
LOL
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Kevin Raymer
Zum / Knaggs / Breedlove
Fractal Audio |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2014 10:02 am
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Donny, no disrespect meant, and Lord knows I'm a "non-conformist" as well!
If aluminum is plated cleaning agent contact the plating, not the aluminum. Same goes for aluminum with a coating of any kind. Aluminum that has oxidized (look at bare aluminum that's been left outside newer the beach for years some may be pitted, some may appear ok - but all will have a self-protective layer of aluminum oxide on the exposed surface(s).
Much of the aluminum available nowadays has either been coated or plated and ammoniated cleaners will be reacting (if they react in each specific case) with the coating or plating, not aluminum. There are are also many different aluminum alloys, and each will react differently with ammonia (the concentration of ammonia in the product also affects the results, as does rinsing with clean water after cleaning.
The whole point being this: if you have aluminum & you don't know whether or not it has any type of plating or coating on it, I'd advise being cautious and avoid using ammoniated cleaners. It won't hurt anything NOT to use them, but you could have problems if you do.
There's nothing wrong with being cautious.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Walter Bowden
From:
Wilmington, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2014 4:09 pm
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FWIW, I have used club soda with a worn out cotton T shirt to clean my fretboard with pretty good results.
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Emmons S10, p/p, Nashville 112, Zion 50 tele style guitar, Gibson LP Classic w/Vox AC30, Fender Deluxe De Ville and a Rawdon-Hall classical |
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