10 string vs 12 string

Felix Borda · From: Ontario, Canada

Being fairly new to steel guitar I like to ask you veterans what is it about the 10 string that most players seem to prefer. When I hear the 12 string being played, I often wonder why anyone bothers with the 10. It seems you can play a large variety of music which ten strings cannot do for you.
Maybe I'm wrong, I have no idea but would love some input on this. As I stated above, I'm leaning towards buying a 12 string.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

First: You need to move this to the pedal steel section. You'll get a lot more responses. (done by b0b)

Second: What kind of music do you contemplate playing? Do you believe you will actually use a C6th type tuning, or are you drawn to E9th style steel? A lot more people have given up on C6th than E9th, but some are strongly driven to master the C6th.

Third: What compromises are you willing to make? No single tuning will do everything, no matter how many strings or pedals and levers you have. Is the extra expense and weight of a double neck much of a factor?

Fourth: How are you going to learn to play the tuning(S) that you choose? If you play E9th &/or C6th there is a ton of instruction material available, and perhaps an instructor nearby to help you along the way. If you play a 12 string universal tuning, there is less available to help you along.

Fifth: There are no wrong answers. It's all just personal preference.
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Felix Borda · From: Ontario, Canada

Hi Paul and first thank you for your help.
I have a 12 string player whom has been playing for over 40 years and is helping me along. I like the country stuff and hawaiian music. He tells me he needs the bottom two strings to play the country songs the way they are supposed to sound which you cannot do on a 10 string. ie: Ghost riders. When he plays the crowd is just in awe at the sounds he makes with this guitar. He plays a 12 string Sho Bud and loves it and has in the past played the 10 string, dobro , double necks etc. We are both hopefully going to the St. Louis convention so we both will be looking around and asking all sorts of questions.
Many thanks for your imput again!

Geoff Noble · From: Scotland

Hi Felix, I'm a relative newbie to pedal steel guitar, been playing for about 4 years. I started learning on a GFI student S10 and recently upgraded to a Carter U12. For me it was the right decision.

I only played E9 before going Universal and am just starting to explore C6/Bb6, but the thing is I can use it solely as an E9 instrument if I want, only with an another octave below an S10. Some great sounds on the lower strings.

I tend to do my own thing so I'm not really tied to a particular style of music. The U12 is great for this as there are many different possibilities to explore and as time goes on and I become more experienced, it's an option to change the co-pedent to suit what I'm doing. At the moment the factory co-pedent is more than enough to tackle.

I guess it depends on what you want to do, personnally I couldn't go back to just playing an S10.

Hope this helps.
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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

12 strings are what I play. 12 strings can give you some low range you can't get with 10. 12 string universal (one option) can give you most of what a D-10 gives you. 12 string E9 Ext. can cover some guitar vamping roles.

But:

Felix Borda · From: Ontario, Canada

Hello Jon ,
I believe that remark I made was more my fault in how I worded it. This fellow plays Ghost Riders in the Sky amazingly and I can't find one 10 string player that can play it the same simply as I see it that they don't have the bottom base strings.
Maybe I'm wrong , I'm just new! Mickey is a great guy in taking his time to help me out
And I appreciate all his and your input.
Many thanks!!

Curt Trisko · From: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

I've already made up my mind that my next steel (to replace my first steel, a Stage One) will be an S-12. I'm doing it based on the following assumptions, and please correct me if I'm wrong:

1) The bass notes on an S-12 will allow you to play fuller-sounding solo arrangements, kind of like the way 6-string guitar players sometimes use their low E.

2) For playing in a band, the lower 2 notes aren't as useful because they lie in the range that the guitar and vocals are in.

Tim Tyner · From: Ayden, North Carolina U.S.A

I have often wondered each time this subject crops up that if the 12 stringers are better in any special way why the majority of the top players and session artists in the world still seem to prefer the 10's.This is only my observation and opinion of course and I could be off base here.

Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

Tim, a whole raft of those "bigshots" aren't playing tens, they're playing twenties. A D-10 gives you the most options, with lots of low end possibilities. A twelve gives you a compromise, but with less chance of a hernia or back surgery!

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I'm a firm believer in having a low E note, but that doesn't mean that you need to have 12 strings. You just need to understand what you'll lose from the standard E9th. You don't need to lose very much to extend the range of a 10 string down to E.

I played a 12 string for over 25 years, the last few on a D-12. Now I play 8 strings. I didn't lose nearly as much as I thought I would. At some point, I'll probably go back to 10 to make things a little easier on myself.

The musical capabilities come from your brain, not from your guitar. The same is true of limitations.
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Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

I'm 15 years into steel guitar, going on 4...(intermittent focus for the first 5 years with a 9 year hiatus..heavy focus the last 8 months, now playing paying gigs).

I started with an S10 E9, moved quickly into a U12 for all the reasons suggested, with the additional issue that I absolutely found that ninth string "D" in E9 a pain in the a$$ to wrap my head/fingers around at the beginner phase (a U12 doesn't have it) - but always marked it in my mind that I would revisit that frustration when I had more experience and capability. Honestly, I found the U12 easier to learn on and less frustrating than an S10 E9. Just the way I'm wired, maybe.

Recently, I have purchased a couple of D10's (an 8x7 and an 8x8) in part because they were too good of buys to pass up, and because I have always wondered what theoretical compromises I may have made going to a Universal, including the missing D string.

My conclusion is generally that my 5x5 Universal 12 has the functionality of about an 8x5 to an 8x6 D10, with a few holes that could be filled better than halfway with a more complex U12 copedent, ie 6x6. What you lose in copedent "holes" you gain more in having the E9 and B6 strings available to you on one neck. Having the strings at your disposal is an understated luxury when comparing U12 to a D10.

Really, now that I have a Universal and an 8x8 D10 (wish it was 9x9 haha), I wouldn't be happy without one of each. They just have different characteristics that I like. I have NO desire whatsoever to go back to a S10/E9 - and actually view that experience somewhat negatively.

The U12 was a GREAT and natural segway into C6 type voicings and songs...I find it easier to play non-conventional steel guitar genres on a U12 than a D10...rock, blues, etc. You can use the low B6 strings for the rhythm work and the higher strings in a more E9th role.

A U12 is unusually well suited to playing more contemporary Christmas songs, and big band swing from the wartime era for instance. There's just variations in some of those compositions that alternate between an 9th vs a 6th approach, and just suits the U12 to a tee.

There's some players that buy into the U12 concept, but at a practical level complain that there are just two many strings to find your hand (string) position easily - and I think that's a concern that has some merit to it...I've found that you need to rely on the feel of the guitar under your palm more than the visual noting of your thumb on (usually) one of the three bottom strings as is typical on a 10 string...about 2/3 the time, you've got your thumb on the 8th string or 7th or 6th...which is a long ways from the bottom...and hard to count...thus learning the 'feel' under the palm is a skill only gained by seat time, not by kindergarden math. This may be the U12's biggest disadvantage.

The grips are easier for a beginner on U12 than on E9 IMO...so grips are easier, hand position more difficult. You adjust and compensate accordingly if you have the commitment. The same with anything.

If you're after genre flexibility as a beginner, a u12 is exactly what you want, IMO.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

First, I agree that the bit about "you can't play them the way they're meant to be be played on a 10" is just silly. Like B0b said, the capabilities and limitations lie between the ears, not on the guitar.
The biggest downside to the U-12 comes in the lack of places to put changes, if you're going to load up your guitar (which isn't entirely necessary: Lloyd Green gets more, and cooler, music out of 3&4 [or 5, I think I heard he added a vertical] than I get out of my 5&5 front neck) with all the modern changes. My Sho-Bud monster uni will have almost everything my 8&7 Zum D-10 has, minus the "Franklin pedal". And it's STILL 10&7. Unless I get "forward-moving" levers or wrist levers, I'm out of places to put levers, and 10 is about the max on pedals.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

When I first started I figured the same as you guys. if 10 is good 12 must be better. As I learned to play and spent time in person with the real masters of the steel I found that it just wasn't true. The universal 12 has not really caught on with professional players and it has been around for over 20 years. There is just no need for it. A D10 has more options and for that matter if you spend the time learning the neck an E9 10 string has enough options and music in it to last 10 lifetimes.

Bottom line for me is if you are at the point in your playing that you think you need a lever to play a minor chord then adding the complications of a U12 is a complete waste of time.

There are plenty of players that play U12s that are way better than me though so to each his own.
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Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Curt Trisko · From: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Something that is often overlooked in these comparisons of 10 vs. 12 strings, and how the top pros don't use Unis, or Ext. E9th, is that the great majority of them are session players. That lower register (of the 12 string guitars) is almost always taken up by other instruments in the arrangements. That upper register of a steel, that 10s and 12s have in common, is much more useful to a producer when painting the soundscape of a cut.

And don't forget, there's a healthy dose of "traditional playing" involved. A d10 is the default standard...especially in the studio. That's not to say a U12 couldn't produce the same results in a given situation, but the producer, in most cases, already knows what's sounds to expect from a D10 player, but not so much from a U12 player. So, in my opinion, there is a strong bias in the studio in favor of the D10.

As to live gigs, if the player can play what's needed for the band environment, he can use whatever copedant he chooses that gets the job done.

All the above is just my view on the topic.
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Micky Byrne · From: United Kingdom (deceased)

Felix..I started on steel in 1970..I play for a living. I was on 10 string E9th from 1970 till 1977, that's when I got an extended E9th S-12 Sho-Bud. I had it modified to a universal in 1982. That's where I am now and won't change.I could never afford a D-10, because us guys in Europe have to pay alot to get the guitars shipped over...then import taxes etc etc. When I'm playing I don't think "Hmmm now I'll play in B6th mode" I just consider it a big tuning and lots of variations on chords etc...you will find something new every day. You will also forget alot of stuff as you go along. At the end of the day it's your decision on what you play. There's a ton to play just on a 10 string Guitar. Good luck in your choice.

Micky "scars" Byrne U.K.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

I love that clip, Donny. I could listen, and watch, Tommy play like that all day!! I wish he'd put out a dvd of a couple hours of that stuff.

But, back to the topic...I've played U12 since the beginning but not in a commercial setting. So I've not felt the need to move to a D10, but I understand why many prefer them.
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Mark Eaton · Posted 26 Jun 2014 10:02 pm

The quote from Lloyd Green below doesn't have anything to do with a 12-string vs. 10-string neck, it has to do with going to an E9th only neck from a D-10, which resulted in the original Sho-Bud LDG, or what has become known regardless of builder the SD-10

I bring it up in this thread because it relates to what b0b and others posted about the music capabilities coming from your brain.

This is from "The Conscience of Steel," written about Lloyd Green by Robbie Fulks in The Journal of Country Music Volume 24.3, which came out in 2005.

"I went to my book and counted 595 sessions on the E9 neck in the preceding twelve months. In other words, out of my last six hundred sessions, I could only account for five on the C6."

Thus came the LDG, and it turns out that it made the guitar lighter by 18 lbs.

As written by Fulks:

"Reduced on the face of it, to half of the musical hardware of most of his peers, Green proceeded to play all shades of country, including western swing (ironically) on his first post-neck removal session, for Danny Davis-with a single tuning. "Most [swing] players think you're impotent on E9," Green says. "You can play anything you want on E9. The problem lies in avoiding thinking. You don't have to think as much with more pedals, more necks, more redundancy."

Fulks continues, in writing about Green: "Constraints spur creativity. He uses pre-pedal-era slants to achieve subtle effects at a tightrope-walker risk level most players would just as soon not assume."

I thought these were some interesting comments about, and from, one of the masters of the pedal steel guitar.
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Ollin Landers · From: Willow Springs, NC

I am certainly not a pro when it comes to PSG I find myself in a situations now where I'm doing double duty on PSG and 6 string and I'm the only lead guitar player in the band. When I'm playing 6 string I use a B-bender to simulate the parts of the song where there are steel licks and my lower 3strings on my Universal to cover the guitar licks when playing PSG. .

Then there are a few songs where I move from playing B6 rhythm chords to E9 licks in the same tune. I find for my situation a Universal makes the most sense. When you have to do it all you're usually not as proficient in one single area and I think of a Universal the same way. If all I ever played was PSG chances are I would play a D-10.
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Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Just a followup note...

I'm playing in a very interesting trio situation (no drums or bass) that's in an alternative fusion genre...the wide grips and voicings I use just couldn't be done without a U12, and it's not just between the ears...it's the physical reality of a tuning system.

If I chose to use my D10, I'd be forced to do something different than what i'm doing now, for better or worse. I.e, the instrument at your disposal impacts what you do.

Robbie Daniels · From: Casper, Wyoming, USA

IMHOP 10 or 12 strings all depends on the individual style and what the steeler is trying to get out of his or her instrument. For myself I have been playing D12's since 1965 starting with MSA's. I do not regret ever making that desicion but having said that I went directly from a Fender 400 with 6 to a D12 monster. In otherwords I have never played a 10 string PSG nor at this point in time want to but that is not saying that 10 string PSG's are no good. It all depends on what the player is looking for. On my C6 neck I have an F below the C and I do watch carefully that I do not get in the bass players way. I am now 81 and still play with ease with all other instruments and voices just not as vigorus.
Laughing

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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

bob drawbaugh · From: scottsboro, al. usa

.....and this may be why you would want a 12 string.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW5x4Qh3EUE&list=PLkjlO57S0zxHwfbfnluRvUiTCF4VZjt3R&index=4

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