MSA full tone drop problem..any thoughts?

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

On my decrepit old MSA classic I have an unusual change .I lower my 3rd string G# a full tone on pedal 4.. This has been in my copedant since day 1. This is a tough change for most changers to handle,as most guitars will not be able to get a good clean FULL tone drop with a .011 string. My MSA did it for years,but I have been having trouble the past year or so. No matter what I do that change is no longer in tune. I know my guitar and have checked everything,stops,finger travel,made sure the raise finger was not moving forward at full pedal etc. It used to make this chage with room to spare,now I have to slant the bar to keep it almost in tune and I find myself NOT USING the change. I may have to go to an .0115 as opposed to the .011.. This should do a bit better on the lower,but I might be poppin' em left and right on my pedal 2 halftone raise due to the increased tension... Any ideas as to what I might try???.. Again, this change was no problem for years and years. Good thing this old girl is heading out to pasture in a few weeks when my new Carter shows up! I welcome any input into this dilemma! bob

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I lower my 3rd a full step on a lever on my Carter---I actually only use it tuned as a split with the B lever for a pedals down G for some Mooney licks. I use a .012 with no explosive results. Could your pedal stop be creeping? Maybe you aren't getting the full pedal range you used to? The Carter's pedal stop is a tiny set screw in the underside of the front apron. Same on the MSA?

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Jon.. the pedal stop would actually have to creep up and tighten itself to decrease the pull. I made sure of that first thing.Yes the MSA has set screw stops under the apron. I really went through this guitar and am mystified. I think a while back I used .0115 3rds and had a little better luck,making this pull. I too had this pull put on a Carter... same as my MSA.. pedal 4.. I talked to John Fabian and he told me this would be no problem. I know if I put a 012 on,I'll have no problem... just don't like the idea of a .012 on 3rd after using an .011 for 28 years!! ... Old dogs you know??... Ann Fabian asked if I had "spoken" to you yet on the forum. I told her I hadn't,but that I'd seen your name lurking about!.... I take it you are the proud and satisfied owner of a Carter guitar??? ... Mine should be here in Feb..... I HOPE!!!! This MSA has been beggin' for mercy for a good 10 years... Time for her to retire to the bedroom away from the bar smoke she's endured for way too many years bob

[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 03 January 2004 at 04:54 PM.]

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Hey--if your old dog doesn't want you to use 12's, put your foot down and tell him no more biscuits until he lightens up. Or maybe I should read that again more carefully..........
Yep, you are of course right about the set screw. That would not make sense. Could be that the manufacturer of your 11's has changed steel supplier or something--maybe they are making a stretchier string. I'm just making this up 'cause truly I haven't got a clue and clearly you know what you're doing and have gone as far as logic & mechanical know how will take you. Just an old axe feelin' ornery, eh?

You must have missed it but I did post on your Carter thread. Yes, I have a fine guitar that plays, sounds and looks great.

http://www.angelfire.com/ny/lightsound/steels.html

Been playing it for 5 years. Absolutely a keeper. Looking forward to your reports on the new guitar.

Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

If your guitar once made the change it can make it again. Keep checking. I would look at the lower return spring.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

If nothing's changed, and nothing's binding in the mechanism (like an old ball-end from a string, or a gummed-up changer), rest assured. The changer will do that change...even with a .010" string! Have you looked to see if the raise finger is moving when you try to lower that string? If so, you may have to lighten the lower-return spring, or stretch it a bit to get it to go down. Minor differences in strings can sometimes cause major problems, and I suggest that might be what's happened.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Guys... found the problem.. MSA guitars have round axle rods that "float" in nylon bushings in the aluminum frame... Its a BULLETPROOF design really. The bellcranks clamp around the rods with a single Allen set screw.The changer rods are in brass inserts in the bellcrank which also tighten with a small ALLEN set screw. Over time and much hard playing and ABUSE.. the bellcranks can slowly slip around the axles and get out of position. If you lay under the guitar they should be staight up and down. A few were not. Over many years they moved JUST ENOUGH and SLOWLY enough to cause this problem. The problem is,your endplate adjustment WILL compensate to a certain extent and I never knew it was happening .It was just the past few months where it got to be bad enough to make me realize we have a problem here!. I only play the steel about 4-6 songs a night with my band,sometimes only once or twice!. If it were the old days when I was on it most of the night I would have known about it sooner..After repositioning the bellcrank,and putting the changer rod in a lower hole in the bellcrank,she dropped down BELOW the clean F# I was looking for. Adjusted EVERY damn stop,pivot,rod,crank,spring,lever,pedal on this guitar... took me days,but she plays like she did 25 years ago. ... bob

[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 03 January 2004 at 08:07 PM.]

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I love my MSAs but I do think that square or hexagonal cross rods are better.

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