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Topic: Confessions Of A Convert To Tube Amps |
Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2014 3:19 am |
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I've been hooked on tube amps for about seven or eight months now and they have become a real passion. One of the best things I've found about them is that I can get some of the tones I remember and and love from the recordings of the fifties and sixties. I believe the steel guitar sound from that era is the best! Smooth with a little grit, and a little more when you push it.
The thing I enjoy least is that the amps' sound varies some, I guess that's just tubes! They don't seem to be as consistent day to day in their sound as solid state. I have several tube amps and they all display that characteristic. The longer the playing session the better tubes sound. At least it seems that way to me.
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
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Posted 18 Jun 2014 9:59 am
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| Audiophile stereo tube types leave them turned on permanently, to avoid the variations you are describing, and to stop "wear" from cooling down and warming up. Not exactly practical for gigging with a twin, though. |
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Daniel Policarpo
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Posted 19 Jun 2014 3:21 am
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| I was just listening to some Porter Wagoner and Kitty Wells last night and I know what you mean about that smooth with grit sound, Bill. You can almost feel it across your bones when the steel part comes through. This is the first time I've been without a proper tube amp, but the best sounding amp I had was an Ampeg V-4. It was also the most consistent amp tone wise, but it ate tubes up like crazy. The most fickle amp I had was a '73 Fender Twin Reverb, but you crank it loud enough, and it won't much matter. It'll get healthy. |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 19 Jun 2014 7:42 am
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A tube amp should never sound inconsistent or eat tubes
Eating tubes usually indicates a bias problem.
Sounding inconsistent usually means something internal is either intermittent or temperature sensitive. Amplification is math folks, unless you are changing things it's electronically always the same.
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Milkmansound.com |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2014 7:57 am
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Must be me and my hearing. Or maybe my math is off.
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Don Griffiths
From:
Steelville, MO
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Posted 19 Jun 2014 8:12 am
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| Ken Pippus wrote: |
| Audiophile stereo tube types leave them turned on permanently, to avoid the variations you are describing, and to stop "wear" from cooling down and warming up. Not exactly practical for gigging with a twin, though. |
I've heard of old tube radios lasting forever that were left on forever. There was one at a job I worked at once that had purportedly been playing around the clock for 40 plus years.
I am with Bill on the tubes . There's nothing more pleasing to my ears than my Twin. Then again,I'm happy with it so I'm not out testing a lot of other amps or looking for an improvement. It has a sweetness,warmth and bite. I don't play enough so every 5-10 years it goes in for new caps,tubes and servicing. Last time it came to more than $500. I hear enough difference that I choose to go this route rather than sell it and buy 3 Roland 80's.
Like Tim says, and every other amp guru says there is no mystery to it, it's all math. The capacitor drift of the sweet sounding vintage amps can be measured,duplicated and improved upon.
Then again my ears tell me differently. Sometimes it just sounds a little colder than other times, most likely due to external factors such as weather and variations in voltage input .
It always sounds better after a few hours of practice. So maybe the inconsistency is in my playing as much as anything else.
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Shobud Pro1,BMI U12, Santa Cruz F, PRS Standard, Fender Twin Reverb, ‘53 000-28 |
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Daniel Policarpo
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Posted 19 Jun 2014 11:14 am
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| Tim Marcus wrote: |
| A tube amp should never sound inconsistent or eat tubes |
They will if you buy them for $300 at flea markets and pawn shops and take them on a road gig. 
I do find it interesting that people will spend so much money on the steel guitar itself, but then skimp out on the amp. The amp's the thing that will get you to the sound you want more than the brand of your steel or guitar. Everything helps, but the amp is the door, the key and the welcome mat as far as I'm concerned. |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2014 2:17 pm
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I notice some difference in my solid state amps from time to time. There isn't a lot, but I do notice some. What I was saying at the beginning is that I notice a little more tone variance in my tube amps. Again, not much, but more than the solid state amps.
What is it? Maybe ghosts, maybe me, I don't know, and it isn't a lot as I said. But, some days they sound better than others, even in my studio. That includes my solid state amps. The highs seem a little smoother, and the lows a little cleaner.
I could be wrong, but I would guess that virtually every picker with an amplifier experiences that.
I'll bet that if I paid $5000.00 or $10,000.00 for a super dooper custom built amp by "Leo Peavey" I would experience the same thing.
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 19 Jun 2014 4:15 pm
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| My tube amps sound and feel different based on hpw long i've left them on..let em cool down...turn it back on, there's change...it may be math but it's dynamic math... |
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Daniel Policarpo
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Posted 19 Jun 2014 6:39 pm
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I believe in ghosts, gremlins, little green men and all that stuff. It may be in my head, but my amps tell me they are real.
And that goes for lots of electronics. Sometimes I'll put on a record, leave it on the platter overnight, and the next day sometimes the tremolo on the guitar doesn't sound near as pronounced, or the highs aren't as brilliant, or something is 'off' and you can't quite put your finger on it. I think there are ways to cut down on variances, but that last 2-5% or whatever is a humdinger.*
*From the editor: Mr. Policarpo is a hack-picker and indications of "humdingers" or little green men should relay all you need to know about his knowledge base. |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 19 Jun 2014 8:57 pm
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| Daniel Policarpo wrote: |
| I do find it interesting that people will spend so much money on the steel guitar itself, but then skimp out on the amp. The amp's the thing that will get you to the sound you want more than the brand of your steel or guitar. Everything helps, but the amp is the door, the key and the welcome mat as far as I'm concerned. |
Yup. Some have recently become hip to this but for the most part it's $3500 worth of steel going into a $400 overseas built tone vacuum
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Milkmansound.com |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 19 Jun 2014 10:12 pm
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I think people forget that your amplifier is a part of your instrument. Everything between your hands and the sound is the instrument. A steel guitar without an amp sounds like crap. Any steel guitar with a bad amp sounds like a bad instrument. You need an amplifier that is equal to the guitar in quality. Otherwise, the quality of the guitar is wasted.
I like clean sounding tube amps with a fair amount of headroom. Not super-powered to the point where you have play loud to hear them at their best. I guess that the 25 to 50 watt range feels best for what I do.
The unpredictability of tubes can be a problem at times, though. My amp doesn't stay the same over the course of a gig. I often turn it off between sets because I don't really like the sound after it's been driven hard for a couple of hours. It gets a bit fuzzy. I think it's a temperature problem. It's hot up here in Cloverdale, and that doesn't help.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2014 3:46 am
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I'm with Bob on the 25 to 50 watts. I don't think any more power is helpful in the tone department. I am sure temperature is a factor in the tone of an amp.
Something I've learned in the last few years to minimize tonal variations, is I try to play with my volume pedal as near full on as possible, or at least keep it in the same rotational range, with only a small amount of volume pedal travel left, and no more vp movement than I have to. Just enough is all that's needed. My Volume pedal is pot powered.
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2014 10:02 am
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I am a big fan of Deluxe Reverbs, and Princeton Reverbs for low volume gigs, recording, practice, etc. For club gigs with a band I like something in the 50 watt range. I can't stand the big tube amps at low volume.
As B0B says, the amp is a part of the instrument, and we have the luxury of fine tuning the instrument for the venue. |
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Mike Bowles
From:
Princeton, West Virginia, USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2014 12:46 pm tube amps
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no expert here but different days i hear things different that goes for all my amps twin nv1000 and cube 80xl what sounds good to me today may sound awful the next day some is my hearing some is the weather and some is my mood. but i usually go back to my twin.
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Mike Bowles |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 20 Jun 2014 1:34 pm Re: tube amps
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| Mike Bowles wrote: |
| no expert here but different days i hear things different that goes for all my amps twin nv1000 and cube 80xl what sounds good to me today may sound awful the next day some is my hearing some is the weather and some is my mood. but i usually go back to my twin. |
Finally! That's what I've been saying. The sound does change day to day. I can love it today thinking it sounds wonderful, and tomorrow I will hate it. I keep going back to my 50 watt tube amp.
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Peter Harris
From:
South Australia, Australia
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Posted 21 Jun 2014 3:32 am Re: tube amps
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| Bill Duncan wrote: |
| Mike Bowles wrote: |
| no expert here but different days i hear things different that goes for all my amps twin nv1000 and cube 80xl what sounds good to me today may sound awful the next day some is my hearing some is the weather and some is my mood. but i usually go back to my twin. |
Finally! That's what I've been saying. The sound does change day to day. I can love it today thinking it sounds wonderful, and tomorrow I will hate it. I keep going back to my 50 watt tube amp. |
Dunno about the 'sound' changing so much as I know my ears change on a daily basis.... ....but then that's very probably an 'age' thing....
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If my wife is reading this, I don't have much stuff....really! |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2014 3:43 am
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Not my young ears!
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Jun 2014 4:05 am
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Interesting thread !
People often joke "it's the weather", but it occurs to me that the weather could indeed effect the overall sound. For example, cold air is much more dense than warm air. Humid air is more dense than dry air. The more density in the air, the more conductive the air becomes. Outdoor gigs remove the echo of sound bouncing off the walls and have always brought me closer to a sound I enjoy than any indoor venue.
Anyone else enjoy playing an outdoor job?
Sincerely,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
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"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 21 Jun 2014 5:19 am
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I believe FIRMLY that humidity affects the behavior of the speaker paper, the sound propagation, or both.
Hot humid gigs result in miserable players but sweet tone.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2014 6:02 am
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| Craig Baker wrote: |
Interesting thread !
People often joke "it's the weather", but it occurs to me that the weather could indeed effect the overall sound. For example, cold air is much more dense than warm air. Humid air is more dense than dry air. The more density in the air, the more conductive the air becomes. Outdoor gigs remove the echo of sound bouncing off the walls and have always brought me closer to a sound I enjoy than any indoor venue. |
Craig, some of my comments were in fun, but I really do notice a difference in the sound of my amps. The tube amps more so. I agree with the weather idea, and that probably has an effect. The difference in sound I notice is a coarseness. It's that some days the highs are smooth and no rough edges with the lows distinct and well defined. Then the next day I hear almost course highs and muffled indistinct lows.
One of my band mates, a guitar player, is a real stickler about his sound and he constantly complains about his amp's sound changing.
He just ordered a new Carvin acoustic amp and couldn't wait for me to hear it. It sounds good, Mike always sounds good on any amp, and his tone is impeccable. It wasn't a week before he was cussing his new amp because he couldn't get his tone right.
I believe when you are as close to something as we are with our equipment we really can notice a small difference that occurs due to things going on in the circuits because of variances in heat, voltage shifts, and humidity.
I also believe that tube amps are more susceptible to these influences.
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking
Last edited by Bill Duncan on 21 Jun 2014 6:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2014 6:04 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
I believe FIRMLY that humidity affects the behavior of the speaker paper, the sound propagation, or both.
Hot humid gigs result in miserable players but sweet tone. |
Totally agree that the weather, and especially the humidity, makes a huge difference in the sound.
Some of the sweetest tone I ever achieved with my rig was on hot, humid outdoor gigs during the Summer. |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Jun 2014 7:10 am
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Since so many of us are in agreement on this, I am going to get to work on re-designing Li'l Izzy to include humidity, barometric pressure, and temperature sensors.
(imagine. . . all that, with no knobs)
Best regards,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
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"Make America Great Again". . . The Only Country With Dream After Its Name. |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2014 7:27 am
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On the idea that what we pay for an amp determines the quality and consistency of sound, maybe, up to a point. But probably not as much as builders of, and purchasers of the boutique amplifiers propose.
A mass produced amp such as Peavey, Fender, Carvin, and so on can sound as good as a boutique amp. The often heard claim that boutique builders use better parts, and pay more attention to detail may not always be true, and if it is, may not make that much difference.
A company has to put as much quality in a product as possible and must be sure the customers are pleased or they won't be in business for the long haul. Sales and profits will suffer. No for profit company wants unhappy customers and a bad name!
As for the quality of parts they use, a company will buy in bulk from long production runs from a source that will keep a steady supply of good quality parts, at the best price.
After all does a highly polished stainless steel or chrome plated chassis make it sound better than one made from unpolished aluminum?
The company buys the parts that meet the usually stringent quality standards for the product they are making. They usually will not however pay for meeting standards higher than needed. A large company with deeper pockets can often purchase very high quality parts that are available only in very large volumes, meaning these parts may be unavailable to low volume builders who can not buy in such quantities.
In my work I sometimes sell component parts as a favor to help out low volume, one or two person manufacturers in my area, because they can not get the parts from the folks I buy from because of sales volume. But I only do this when it is convenient for me and I have time to deal with them. But I never sell some of the proprietary parts that makes our products special.
Also, saying a product made in China or elsewhere is not as good as domestic may not be true either. Except of course being made here is better from a local jobs availability stand point!
I also like to think made in the USA is always better.
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You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Joseph Napolitano
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 21 Jun 2014 7:35 am
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Most of my tube amps sound at least a little different every time I use them. The older ones definitely sound better after they've been on awhile. The one exception is my 50 watt Marshall, left over from the 70s...it always sounds the same. But with it's weight and size it may never leave my music room again, at least not in my lifetime.
Even my Nash112 can vary a little, but less so since putting the Eminence speaker in it. I always practice dry without effects, so when I get to a gig and use effects it seems easier to cop a sound that I'm ok with. |
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