12 strings ?

Richard Mitcham · From: Ocklawaha, Florida

I think I want a 12 string steel, but is there a difference between U12 D12 and how many other names is there? Or is it just a brand name difference? Like could they all be classified a universal 12?

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Hi Richard, generally the Universal 12 string is abbreviated U-12 or SU-12.
It could be abbreviated S-12 but most
people read that as an extended E-9th.
[S being the designation for a single]
Other abbreviations: D = Double neck
SD = single neck on a double frame These abb. are then generally followed by the # of strings per neck.
Hope this helps..BTW, the Universal tuning has a lot to offer on one neck.
I often regret abandoning it.

[This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 23 December 2003 at 06:27 PM.]

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Hi Richard

What Jerry said! I have an SU12, which is a single neck 12, on a single neck frame. I am so glad I went this way. I only have one neck to play, and all the changes I could possibly want are there. I use 8 pedals and 5 knees.

Ron

MSA SU12

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

D-12=2, 12 string necks, usually E9th extended and C6 extended.

S-12=1, single 12 string neck, usually either Universal E9/B6; or Extended E9th.

SD-12=1, single 12 sring neck on a double wide body, usually either universal E9/B6; or Extended E9th.

Extended E9th is:

F#
D#
G#
E
B
G#
F#
E
D
B
G#
E

Universal E9/B6 is:

F#
D#
G#
E
B
G#
F#
E
B
G#
E
B

Either or both of the following recovers the D missing in this universal tuning:

1. Raise the 9th string to a D with a knee lever.

2. Lower the 8th string to a D with a knee lever.

3. Both.

carl

Richard Mitcham · From: Ocklawaha, Florida

Thanks guys thats great help. If I got the SD12=1 could I maybe switch the guitar back and forth from the universal to extended E9 to see what one I liked best without to much trouble? I do use that D string a lot. Im playing a LDG single 10 now and never have played on a C6 neck. I may be wrong but I think I could adapt to the 12 string quicker than the C6. The band im in now is doing some swing music and as ya know we need that sound.

Roger Kelly · From: Bristol,Tennessee

Richard, I am in the process of switching to a U-12. I have a Carter U-12 E-9th/Bb-6th single neck which is wide enough to make the knees feel comfortable to me. I have the 7x5 pedal arrangement that Jeff Newman uses I believe? Going from a D-10 to a U-12 has been awkward for me, but I intend to stick with it. Check out the Carter U-12....good guitar!

David Deratany · From: Cape Cod Massachusetts

Before you go tearing apart an extended E9 S-12 in your quest for a S-12 Universal, you might want to make sure you have a triple raise/lower changer so you can get all the pulls you need for the full universal setup. After that, changing isn't difficult, conceptually, but it can be a pain in the butt getting everything just right. I did it once, adding a VKL. I suppose the next time it will be easy.

Ad Kersten · From: Beek en Donk, The Netherlands

Richard,

I switched from 10 string E9 to 12 strings E9/B6 (Zumsteel Universal S12). The only real problem I encountered was the switch from an Emmons set-up to a Day set-up: pedal A (1st pedal in Emmons set-up) and pedal C are switched. This took me several months to get fully used to.
I also have the "Newman" set of 7 pedals/4 levers, I actually bought the guitar from him. I never really missed the 9th D string, I got it on my LKL lever.
You have to keep your E lever engaged all the time though, if you want to switch from E9 to B6 tuning. This feels completely natural to me. In fact I have rarely played any E9 stuff in the last 3 years, only B6.

It is a great tuning. I think you will like it a lot.

------------------
Zumsteel S12U

Yo, Man! homepage

David Doggett · Posted 24 Dec 2003 3:26 pm

Richard, about a year ago I switched from a single-neck E9 10-string to a 12-string extended E9, then to a 12-string universal. I did not like the ext. E9. The grips on the bottom were too complicated. As soon as I got the universal I fell in love with it. In the E9 mode the grips on the bottom are very simple and the extra strings down there suddenly opened up the whole world of rock and blues for me. I also play classical music on the uni, and those bottom strings are absolutely essential for that. On all these kinds of music I use to run out of strings on bottom. The ext. E9 did not fix that in a convenient way for me, but the uni does. The uni solved my problems so well that I would want that tuning even if the B6 mode was not there.

But with a flick of my knee lever the B6 mode is there for any chord I need at any time. I use it for rockabilly, and am working on useing it for swing, jazz and blues. And unlike C6, B6 relates easily to your knowledge of the E neck. Whatever key you are playing in on the E neck, the 6th neck root for that key will be at the E neck IV chord fret (5 frets up from the tonic). If you are playing in the 6th neck mode, you go to the V chord fret (7 frets up, or 5 down) for the root for the E neck. Or just let off on the 6th neck lever and you will be at the IV chord fret of the E neck. Because you already know the IV and V chord frets in the main keys you play in (on either neck), the relationship of the two necks to each other is natural and simple. In reality the C6 neck is also an Fmaj7,9 neck when you use the 9th string as the root. This is handy, because F is the IV chord of the key of C, and this is a much used position for jazz on the C6 neck. But guess what - on the B6 neck that F chord turns out to be Emaj7,9, or just the standard E9 if you let off on the 6th neck lever. So you already know the fret layout for that whole big chunk of the 6th neck.

Unfortunately you cannot easily convert a 12-string extended E9 to a 12-string universal. Ext. E9s usually come with 3 or 4 pedals and 4 or 5 knee levers. Universals have 6 pedals and 5 knees at a minimum, and many have 8 or 9 pedals and 8 or more knee levers (some in an additional cluster for the B6 mode). Switching the strings of an ext. E9 over to an E9/B6 set is easy. But adding those extra pedals and knee levers is a lot of work and a lot of money. If you buy a uni already has the extra pedals and knees, it only costs slightly more than an ext. E9, and less than a D10. But if you add them after purchase, it will cost much more that the purchase price difference would have been.

On the other hand, you can easily convert a universal to an ext. E9. You just put a new set of strings on and make a few changes in the setup on the lower strings. You will have a bunch of extra pedals, which you can just not use, or can get creative with.

So my advice would be to get a universal. Try it for awhile, get an instructional video for beginning universal (Jeff Newman, or Joe Wright), or one of the many for C6 (you will have to translate to different string and pedal numbers, but it's doable, and you will want to be able to do that anyway in order to communicate with C6 players). If you can't stand the uni, convert it to ext. E9. If you like that you can stay with that guitar, or trade it for an ext. E9 at a profit. If you can't stand ext. E9, get rid of it and go back to an S10 or move up to a D10.

Now a D12 is another story. They are usually just a D10 with a couple extra strings on each neck. In other words, an extended E9 and an extended C6. But other things can be done with them. I got one with the idea of putting a 12-string Sacred Steeler blues/gospel tuning on the outside neck and a 12-string universal on the inside neck. But, making only $20 bucks a gig, I can't exactly quit my day job. And when it comes down to working on guitars or practicing, I'm in much greater need of the latter. So the D12 is sitting over in a corner feeling lonesome

, and my credit card is crying out for some relief, so I don't know what the outcome of this tension will be.

Richard Mitcham · From: Ocklawaha, Florida

Wow! what a bunch of information, and it makes since to me that a universal would have much more to offer.I believe I have seen a steel with 12 strings that had an extra lever on the side of the body that the player just flipped from one side to the other to change tuning. Could that be for that D string? This was about 1980 when I seen that.I've not seen that on any of the newer steels I have seen so I would guess it wasn't to popular.Anyway I guess I would be opening up A can of worms if I ask what U12 would be a good one to look at.

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

I would just emphasize the need for 5 knee levers and at least seven floor pedals. I like 8 but could get by with seven.

Knee levers would be LKL,LKV,LKR...RKL,RKR

I personally like a Bb6/Eb9 setup. I started on non-pedal C6, then switched to non pedal Bb6 while my PSG was being built. I really don't think in terms of what neck or tuning I am playing. It is all about positions, and chords that are close to where I am on the neck. After playing for 8 months I think I could play an Eb9/Bb6 just as easily.

Ron

Ron

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Sierra made many, many 12 and 14 Universal guitars..but I don't think they make them now if you're looking to buy new. Zumsteel makes a good one...as does Mullen, Carter and many others.
If I were going back, I think I'd want a 13 string, I believe Fessenden can build one, and keep the D in the same location as it is....I think I remember Jim Smith
mentioning trying this arrangement.
Perhaps if he sees this post he could shed some light on how it performed for him.

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

Yep, I did have a 13 string Fessenden. Jerry just sold it for me to a guy in Boston.

It worked great, but I just have too many years on D-12's to retrain my brain. It was tuned to an extended E9 with a low B: F#, D#, G#, E, B, G#, F#, E, D, B, G#, E, B. By lowering the 4&8 E's and 2&9 to C#, I had a B6 with a middle C# like C6 with a middle D.

Robert Randolph still plays a Fessenden 13 string sometimes, and Jerry gets calls for them once in a while. I'm sure he'd build one for you, and I can even help you with the purchase too, if you're interested.

------------------
Jim Smith jimsmith94@comcast.net
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden D-12 9&9=-
-=Emmons D-12 push pull 9&4 (soon to be 9&9)=-
Stereo Steel rig w/Boss GX-700
IVL SteelRider w/JV-880

David Doggett · Posted 24 Dec 2003 10:02 pm

Richard, there are two ways to play a universal. Many players who previously played a D10 use the universal as simply a way to get both necks in a one neck more compact guitar. They will play it in the E9 mode, or in the B6 mode. To get the B6 mode, the lever that lowers the Es will have a lock on it, so you don't have to hold it in with your knee. If you want to play in B6 mode, you hit the lever, it locks, and you play entirely in that mode. These guys like to have a middle cluster of levers for the left knee that work for the B6 mode, just as many C6 players like to have a middle cluster for the C6 neck. If you want to play in E9 mode, you release the lever and play entirely in that mode, just as if it were an S10 E9. That side lever you saw may have been the lock lever for this type of universal.

Other players, and I am one of these, prefer to think of E9 and B6 together as one big tuning with twice as many chords as either neck alone. You don't just go into one mode and stay there. You can jump back and forth from chord to chord, choosing a chord from either mode. For this you don't want a lock.

As for brands, Reece Anderson and MSA pioneered the universal and have always made one of the best. Sierra also made a good one, but has recently gone out of business (but may be resurrected by new owners). Almost any of the main modern makers has a good universal: Carter, Zum, Mullen, Fessenden, GFI, etc. The two major old line makers, Sho-Bud and Emmons, never made a universal (although they did make 12-string extended E9 models that can be converted to a uni). Since the same design and mechanics are used, the quality of a universal will be about the same as the quality of an S10 or D10 from the same manufacturer. So you would choose one the same as you would choose an S10 or D10.

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 25 December 2003 at 09:46 PM.]

Richard Mitcham · From: Ocklawaha, Florida

Yea, David I agree with you. (E9 and B6 as one big tuning) would be best for me and never having played a C6, why bother fliping a lever to get in that B6 mode anyway. Looks like I want a SDU-12 with 7 floors and 5 knees.I want to thank all you guys for this great info and also this super "Steel Guitar Forum" its the best.Looks like I will have a LDG for trade in or for sale soon.

Bengt Erlandsen · From: Brekstad, NORWAY

Richard.
If you think you want a 12 string, my advice is to to try a D10 to see if you feel you want those two necks combined into one before you decide for a universal E9/B6,
Tuned B E G# B E F# G# B E G# Eb F#.

I started w a S10 E9 for several years before I got a S12 ExtE9.
Tuned E G# B D E F# G# B E G# Eb F#
There is absolutly nothing complicated about chords or fingering grips on the low strings if you are used to the 10 string E9. Everything is laid out in a logical system.
So see if you can find a S12extE9 to also try before deciding which way to go.

Latest guitar I got is a D10 and after trying the C6 neck for a while I have come to this conclusion. Putting both necks into one 12 string tuning with all the pedals and levers is not something I would do on my guitars.

If you like the sound of open voiced triads you will find them all over the neck on a S12extE9 and the R/H fingering is super easy to learn. The S12 extE9 is just one nice tuning w an extended low range and all the 6th, aug, dim, 7ths, 9th voicings can be found there too.

The C6 grips and voicings are just different and I think they belong on their own neck.
But if you only can afford one guitar and you feel you need to play both the C6 and the E9. S12 universal is the way to go.

S12universal or S12ExtE9?
Try both and see which one you like. Either one can do things the other can't.
If you go for the universal you could change the setup to ext E9 and still use all the extra pedals. Going from ExtE9 to universal might not be possible unless you order/buy/find that guitar w enough pedals/lever to cover the other setup.

Bengt Erlandsen
Remington S10, ZumSteel S12extE9, JCH D10

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 25 December 2003 at 06:48 AM.]

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

For those who do not know, the secret to a universal is the lever that lowers the basic tuning from and E9th tuning to a B6 tuning. This is done of course by lowering the E's to Eb. One can achieve this by lowering them with a knee lever same 10 string E9th players have done for years. OR, if the guitar has a "LOK" lever, it can be used to "HOLD" the E's to Eb.

The lever on Universals is voluntary in most cases. IE, one CAN use it if they choose to. Or not use it at all, except in one application explained below. When I first got mine, I used it a lot while playing B6 type songs. As time went on I found myself not using it nearly as much. But ocassionally I WILL flip it, if I play in the 6th mode for an extended period of time.

I am not sure the Carter universals ever had a LOK lever. Maybe. And it seems to me that some other universals did not have one also. I believe Sierra's and Excel's always had one.

While some have made the Emmons's 12 P/P into a universal, a number of us feel the P/P does not lend itself as well to this tuning. This is due to the fact that at best a P/P is still a single raise single lower system. This simply creates too many hard to work around problems trying to make it a universal.

The truest meaning (IMO) of a universal would never use a LOK lever. Players like Reece Anderson epitomize this thinking which I so admire. To Reece it is one tuning and he simply does not "think" E9th or B6. In fact he uses a different tuning altogether.

However there are players who do use the universal as two distinct tunings; and for these players some (as the poster said) use two clusters of left knee levers; one for E9th sounds and one for B6th sounds. In this case the LOK lever becomes intregal to this universal tuning. And an absolute must, IF LKR is the one that lowers the E's to Eb; since it would be impossible to hold the E's to Eb if one moved their knee out of the E9th cluster.

Finally, having a LOK lever or not, does not determine whether it is a universal. Rather it is determined by its tuning. The universal has NO D on the 9th string (open tuning). For if it did, it would mess up the bottom of the B6 tuning that is standard on C6 (on D-10's). The D note is obtained by using a knee lever; either raising the 9th string (B) OR, lowering the 8th string (E); OR both.

carl

Ernie Pollock · From: Mt Savage, Md USA

Richard: I think I would go the Universal [S-12U] I started on D-10's in 1975 and ventured over to the S-12U and loved it, but I always liked the single width body on my S-12U's, that makes them a lot lighter to carry around. I just went back to the universal a couple of months ago, after about 6 or 7 years on D-10's, no regrets, every time I pack up my Kline S-12U [7&6][keyless makes it even smaller, the case looks like a tenor sax case!!] I feel real good about it!! Just my 2 cents.

Ernie

http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75

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Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

If you are buying a brand of S12U that offers a Lever Lock, I'd reccomend getting the Lock.
Reason is, if you have it, you can either use it, or not use it.
If you are not already a 6th-tuning champ, you will likely be spending a ton of time learning your way around the 6th tuning, and you don't want to be holding the lever over for hours/days/etc... on end (I've seen folks bungee-cord the lever over, not appealing to me).
When gigging, I find there are a ton of places the One Big Tuning method works fine, but just as many times I like to Lock into a straight 6th tuning and enjoy! For example, I play many gigs where I only play one E9th number per set.
I also have changed my first 3 strings to D#, G#, F#, to get the 6th tuning to line up better (for me it lines up better for E9th too).

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 25 December 2003 at 02:07 PM.]

Richard Mitcham · From: Ocklawaha, Florida

Well, I guess I do have one more question. Is the string spacing the same on the 12 string as most 10 string steels? Like my hand is big and I need the space.

David Doggett · Posted 25 Dec 2003 9:58 pm

String spacing depends on the brand. My 12-string Emmons p/p, Carter and Fessenden all seem to have the same spacing as 10-string guitars. But I recently saw an old MSA 12-string that had the strings noticeably closer together. I don't know about the new MSAs.

Al Marcus · From: Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)

Richard-you just got a ton of good solid advice on the S12 string setup.

I can add my thoughts. As Ernie says ,I would go for a Single body 12.
Why carry around a D12 body with that extra weight and they cost more.

All the S12 I have seen are extra wide with room for all the knee levers on the back end.
Get the lock, even if you don't want to use it.
Carter ,Mullen, Zumsteel does not have it standard but I am sure they would put one on for you, if you order it.
As Carl Mentioned Sierra and Excel have it standard. Emmons don't sell a S12.
Very Good idea, all builders take note, they should be offering the lock standard on all S12 guitars.

On String spacing, I didn't like the closer spacing on some of the guitars either, Older MSA's, etc.

Reece told me he could play faster that way. For HIM yes.
But I personally liked the old Sh0-Bud spacing.
I can get my fingers in there without hitting the wrong strings all the time. I don't practice enough to overcome that.

On Universal tunings, I use my own "Real Universal", That is all on one neck, one tuning, and no lock needed. So it is all one big tuning. It is a combination of E9 and E6th. The only differnce from Ext. E9 is take the 2nd string D# off and put it between the 4th E and 5th B string, tune it to C# and pull it up to a D# with a knee lever. Lots of goodies there.
This is no good for old pros as they are to used to the finger grips for the licks they play, on the upper 4 strings.But they could leave that D# in there and go for 13 strings, or leave out the G# 11th string, as BE does on his S12. But it would be a good one for a newer player to start using....Good luck and Happy Holidays...al

------------------
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

[This message was edited by Al Marcus on 26 December 2003 at 10:40 AM.]

Winnie Winston · From: Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.

There is ONE thing that has not been mentioned.
The E9th uses slightly different string gagues than the C6th-- wich has something to do the "fatter" tome of the C6th.
If your ears are really sensitive to it (and mine aren't at all) you might find it hard to get the tome needed for swing stuff going from an E9th universal...

JW

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I recently traded with Bobby Seymour for a S-12 Sho~Bud. I'm going to experiment with the extended E9th tuning. If I like it, I'm going to have a double neck built with a 12 string E9th neck on the front and a 10 string C6th on back neck. I'm a little too long in the tooth to start on the universal tuning now.
Erv

Robbie Daniels · From: Casper, Wyoming, USA

I have been playing D12 pedal steel for 40 years. Have never played a D10 because I just prefer the lower end of the extended E9 and I use basically the standard 10 string C6 setup with a high G, but I extended it with a D on top and a low F on the bottom. It fits my style.

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