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Topic: Let's clear up them altered chords once and for all |
Stuart Legg
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Posted 6 Jun 2014 10:16 pm |
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Oh no! Those pesky altered chords, ???who needs them, they sound like an endless series of pointless expounding and you’d need a GPS to clear up the visual clutter as per the Steel Guitar exploded neck view.
Here is an example: an A dom7 chord with the altered 5th and 9th. *I dropped the root (who needs it?).
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 6 Jun 2014 10:22 pm
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What I’m leading up to here is that the basic E9 (3pedals, 4knees) is severally limited when it comes to altered chords so just accept that fact and use it to your advantage when dealing with altered chords.
In other words don’t make a big deal out of them. Simplify the visual. *You already know the all turds on either side of the 5 and the 9. So why not show the neck like this?
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 6 Jun 2014 10:26 pm
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Leading to this conclusion……
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 6 Jun 2014 10:31 pm
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Wow the one magic position at the 11th fret for the A dom7 all turds. So I just go there when I need that altered chord.
See there I told you being limited is an advantage on E9. Now you know it all right there one behind the pedals down position! |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 6 Jun 2014 10:32 pm
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Before we get too deep into this discussion a person would need to have a basic understanding of substituting altered chords for a functioning dominant five chord.
So let’s start with this question …what is a functioning dominant five chord? |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 7 Jun 2014 8:17 am
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Everything you need in altered chords can be accomplished with triads. No need to play such big chords all the time. learn your scales (all the minors, too) and learn to build triads or 3 note groupings using different intervals. It's OK to mix and match, too.
For instance, need a 13b9? Play a major triad built on the 13th or 6th (for E it would be C# maj).
Need an E7b5b9? Play a Bb triad. Want to sound hip? Move those triads around.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 7 Jun 2014 9:01 am
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That works but risky,
Let’s say you make an A13 ( low to high b7 3 6 )to resolve to a D.
You will hear it as a Eb7b9 and the altered notes you add will be different from those of an Adom7 accordingly.
You can have an A7 altered but not an A13 all turd It's just out of the scale.
I show all the inversions on frets you can have a 3rd and a b7 and pick an available altered note.
I didn't intend anyone to strum across a whole bunch of strings at any of the positions.
Meanwhile back at the ranch we are still looking for that functional dominant chord??? |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 7 Jun 2014 11:20 am
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Well this is a forum and I guess I can filibuster since it seems few want to jump in.
I was pretty sure not a lot of folks would join in on this.
Plenty of knowledge regarding a P/P , what color, what lube, who to send it to when it gets a ding, I got screwed on my last pedal steel purchase, country ain't country anymore, ain’t he the greatest, ain’t he the worst or why is steel guitar dying ?
Folks here know more about diseases, person ailments and cures than they ever will know about just the music part of playing steel guitar.
It’s as if they love steel guitar but hate music. |
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Andy Sandoval
From:
Bakersfield, California, USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2014 11:45 am
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| I don't think "they hate music", I think they're probably too busy "playin music" to be impressed by your confusing spreadsheet Stuart. |
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Ron Kassof
From:
Las Vegas, NV, USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2014 12:08 pm
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| Something that resolves to the Tonic? |
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Jonathan Lam
From:
Brooklyn, NY
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 7 Jun 2014 6:10 pm
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| Andy Sandoval wrote: |
| I don't think "they hate music", I think they're probably too busy "playin music" to be impressed by your confusing spreadsheet Stuart. |
Yep. If I'm playing guitar, I know from years of experience what's gonna happen if I move a finger one step up, or one step back. And on steel guitar, I know that a half-pedal sounds good. So, you write THIS?
"Well this is a forum and I guess I can filibuster since it seems few want to jump in.
I was pretty sure not a lot of folks would join in on this."
You got what you wanted, didn't you? |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 7 Jun 2014 7:03 pm
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Um, if I'm reading this right (and I'm not sure I am), you're just substituting an Eb7 for an A7, a simple tritone (b5) dominant substitution.
If indeed this is what you're doing, this is a very basic and very useful sub - sort of a "just add water and it sounds like jazz" sub. It works because they share the 2 most crucial notes - the 3 and b7 of one is the b7 and 3 of the other.
If this is not what you mean, never mind
If it is - "a dominant chord 1/2 step above the I chord resolves nicely to the I, if you desire a jazzy sound"
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 8 Jun 2014 8:34 pm
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Altered chords is a place in my studies I spent little time and most of what I state here is based on assumption to fill in what I might have missed.
I ran across the term in Functioning dominant seventh chord in my notes on altered chords. I don't know the exact definition for it (I just assumed) so I thought someone would know or would look it up to see if it is what we think it is.
The idea of this topic was to clear up assumption regarding altered chords by discussion.
Questioning my motive contributes little to the discussion.
Christopher your take on tritone substitution is right on but I just used that as an example of why I would not consider adding 13th to an already altered chord.
Mike I didn't mean to imply that your triad subs were not something that should be given consideration, it is that it just doesn't strictly fit the narrative of my idea of a Dom7 altered substitution.
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 9 Jun 2014 11:48 am
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Well to continue on with my filibuster.
here is an example of playing an altered scale and an altered chord in a V7 to 1.
*Hold the A&B&E down all the way through the A7 part and let off the E lever when it resolves.
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Eddie Cunningham
From:
Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 9 Jun 2014 2:43 pm What to do if ???
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| This is all pretty deep and heavy stuff !! What about non-pedal players !! What do we do ?? I'm waiting for "Bo" to chime in and clear the air !! Or has he been warned off ??? = the REAL olde geeze !!( age 85 and still counting )!!! |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 9 Jun 2014 4:42 pm
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Stuart - now I get where you're going with this. Yes! The Bb Melodic Minor (jazz style, same pitches both directions), is a perfect altered scale for a V dominant
Not to be picky (haha, so to speak), but in your example, it would be stronger, in my opinion, to put the 3rd on top of the D chord (F#), rather than the root, at least in a jazz context
Eddie - if you're playing C6, the stuff Stuart is referring to lives pretty comfortably on the 1st or 13th fret - sorry that I'm writing this on my phone, so I can't put up a chart.
The notes are Bb C Db Eb F G A - a Bb melodic minor scale, most of which is straight across the neck
Resolve to D chord on the 2nd or 14th fret
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Bob Simons
From:
Kansas City, Mo, USA
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Posted 9 Jun 2014 5:24 pm
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Legg is right! You need to be "altered". I took his advice. Instead of resolving just to the tonic, I resolved to the gin and tonic.
_________________
Zumsteel U12 8-5, MSA M3 U12 9-7, MSA SS 10-string, 1930 National Resonophonic, Telonics Combo, Webb 614e, Fender Steel King, Mesa Boogie T-Verb. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 9 Jun 2014 7:26 pm
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Christopher good stuff. You are right about the 3rd instead of the 1. A much better choice in any genre.
So on that chart just move the 5A on the 10th string to 5A on the 5th string.
I’m not trying to play C6 on the E9 neck, just trying to introduce a little pizzazz to E9 chops by exploring some simple jazz. |
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Chris Brooks
From:
Providence, Rhode Island
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Posted 10 Jun 2014 10:57 am
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Sorry, I am a little slow today: but what is the main idea of the original post?
Chris |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 10 Jun 2014 12:36 pm
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| Quote: |
Sorry, I am a little slow today: but what is the main idea of the original post?
Chris |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 10 Jun 2014 7:38 pm
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The original post was a sarcastic introduction to altered chords to capture the mood of the inevitable negative replies to anything I post.
I anticipated that we would suffer through the negative replies and receive a few very informed replies that would give us some clarification on altered chords.
I don't know about you but I am learning from this and I am sorry for those that for whatever reason are not. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 10 Jun 2014 9:23 pm
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Here is 7b9 you can over use and PO folks when you want to get noticed.
You can drop the first chord the A7, count 1 2 3 then grin! and resolve it to a plain old D major if you're playing "Waltz across Texas" in D.
Like this
/-----------------------------------Tex---------as----------with------------you
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Bo Legg
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Posted 10 Jun 2014 9:41 pm
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 10 Jun 2014 9:42 pm
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Hey man - with the way you think, the sounds that interest you, I'm surprised you don't play a 6th tuning. Nothing whatsoever against E9 - so much music of all kinds on it! - but I love S-12 Bb6 for it's ability to cross all the lines, harmonically
Please forgive the topic drift...
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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