There's tone and then there's tone

Alvin Douglas · From: Prince Edward Island

Spent an absolutely wonderful 2 hours learning licks from Ollie Stong. Great player and great guy. He plays a Fuwalka double neck. We both played through NV 112 amps, set about the same. Different volume pedals and he uses a pedal reverb ahead of the amp. There is no comparing the tone of his guitar to my MSA S10. Especially the highs. There is a sweetness to his tone and a hard shrill quality to mine. I will attribute a lot of it to his technique but what is doing the rest of it? His PU's are custom humbuckers and I think mine is a single coil. Is that the difference? Geez that guitar sounds good. I have always felt that my PU was overly hot. Maybe I just need to mess with the I/p level a bit. Suggestions?
A
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Fender American Deluxe Telecaster, Gibson Les Paul Standard, Quilter MicroPro 8.

Craig Schwartz · From: McHenry IL

is there a super sustain pick up along with volume pot and tone control on your MSA?
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SO MANY LURES, SO LITTLE TIME....

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Did you guys experiment with tone by playing each other's steels? If you did you can eliminate the variable of "it's in the hands " .

My experience with old MSA guitars is that the lows are muddy and the highs are fuzzy. Many people get a sound they are happy with but for many others it is a transitional guitar. People play them for a while and then move on to a different steel as there ears develop and they get committed enough to spend the money on a steel that better suits there tastes.

You can change the pickup or amp but it will not change the basic tone of the instrument. Like changing microphones with a singer. The mic will make a difference. But if you don't like the singers voice the mic wont do much.
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Bob

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

I had a friend that had an MSA double neck with super sustain pickups on it that was the most beautiful guitar I ever laid my eyes on. He had a vintage Fender Twin Reverb amp which is also what I had. This was back in the early 80's before there was much out there as far as steel amps. I messed and messed with his guitar and never did good any tone out of it. It was the worst sounding guitar I had ever heard. I would not be surprised if it is the guitar. But, this is basing a lot on just the one guitar that I had a run in with.

You need to get another player to give it a test run on their equipment. They play your guitar, you play theirs and see what happens. Also, if you are sitting head to head with another steel, then that means your amp sound is hitting you in the back of the head. Their amp sound is hitting you in the front of the head. This can make a difference. Turn your guitar to face your amp and see if it improves things. Or, simply plug into their amp, which is facing you.

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

The worst sounding pedal steel that I have ever played was an SD10 MSA lacquer, natural finish. Absolutely zero sustain, nothing above the 12th fret and just toneless. I remember thinking that if that guitar was mine I would have it up for sale in 5 milliseconds.

It wasn't one of MSA's early plywood mica guitars that have such appalling reputations. I have heard one or two of the older MSA's played on YouTube that sound pretty good.
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Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E,

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The best test would have been for him to play your axe and you play his
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Alvin Douglas · From: Prince Edward Island

Yes, my PU is the stock supersustain c/w volume and tone pot. We did not switch guitars but I hope to get together with him again and will suggest it. We had the steels facing one another with the amps side by side to my right and his left. Amp volumes were very low. While my guitar has some sustain, it is nothing like his. I suspect the answer is a combination of things. At least now I know what I am chasing. Thanks for the responses.
A
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Fender American Deluxe Telecaster, Gibson Les Paul Standard, Quilter MicroPro 8.

Bill L. Wilson · From: Oklahoma, USA

After I had been playing steel for 2yrs. on an MSA S10, Semi-Classic, 3&1. I had the opportunity to set my steel up beside a friend's Emmons P-P D-10, in a studio, direct to the board, in the control room. Of course my friend, the LATE GREAT, Jerry Hall, was and still is my steel guitar hero. His Emmons Knocked it out of the Park, hands down, the best tone I've ever heard. My little MSA, w/a single coil P-up, couldn't hold a candle to that Emmons. So my heart was set on that tone from that day on, and I'm still chasing it. GOD Rest Your Soul, JERRY HALL, Nobody has influenced me more, sometimes I think I hear it, on my LeGrande and then I wake up and go, Nope, it's close, BUT NO CIGAR!

Craig Schwartz · From: McHenry IL

Hi Alvin, When you play or test the MSA, keep the volume pot 100% and keep the tone pot 100% bright.
I dont know your volume pedal setup, but a standard pot pedal will do the job just fine, make sure it does`nt have a tone control on it, that will only suck the life out of that pickup, A buffer is a different story, they seem to help.
You can make that guitar sing for you, just be patient and work with the amp, Give it more than a 5 ML second try, You`ve got a good guitar there, Like all guitars (and I dont care if its a Franklin) they need to be figured out, the tone of the guitar is in there, you just need to find it, Just like any other guitar, all brands sound different,
The settings on your amp will be different than your partners amp, because its a totally different guitar,
Hang in there and you`ll eventually figure it out. Take your time thats a good guitar Smile

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SO MANY LURES, SO LITTLE TIME....

Michael Brebes · From: Northridge CA

I have an MSA D10 that came with Supersustain pickups. I thought they sounded awful. Pulled the pickups and replaced them with Lawrence 710's. No more muddy bottom end and nasty high end. The tone was great and the sustain was incredible.
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Michael Brebes
Instrument/amp/ pickup repair
MSA D10 Classic/Rickenbacher B6/
Dickerson MOTS/Dobro D32 Hawaiian/
Goldtone Paul Beard Reso

Mesa Boogie Studio Pre/Hafler 3000
RP1/MPX100

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

I have an old MSA so called "plywood", and I have a Williams. I play the MSA most, and still love it! To me it sounds and plays every bit as good as the Williams. I can tell very little tone difference between them. I have the same type and brand of strings and E66 pick ups on both.

I can say that I may not always have the Williams, but I will never get rid of the MSA.
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You can observe a lot just by looking

George Kimery · From: Limestone, TN, USA

If I were you, I would try a Lil Izzy. It clears up tone, that is what it is designed to do. If it doesn't help, then Craig Baker will gladly refund your money.

Craig Baker · From: Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.

Thank you George.

I had an MSA S-10 back in the late 70s. First thing I would recommend is disconnecting the guitar's built-in volume and tone control's. All they can do is place limits on your guitar. Beyond that, as George said, a good buffer would allow the guitar's overtones to be heard and as Craig Schwartz indicated, you'll probably be delighted with that guitar's tone.

Best regards,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792

cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com

C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024
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Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

Great idea on using the Lil Izzy, and disconnecting the tone/volume pots.
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You can observe a lot just by looking

Alvin Douglas · From: Prince Edward Island

Went to see Ed Fulawka in Penetang today. I explained that I was pretty unhappy with him since it appeared that my MSA would never sound like one of his guitars. We talked a bit about my visit with Ollie Stong and the difference between the sound of the two guitars. He asked me where my gear was and when I said it was outside in the van he said "well get it in here". We spent an hour switching between my NV112 and his 400, between my MSA S10 and one of the new D10's in his showroom. In the end, we agreed on a setting for my amp that was as close as it was going to get. What a great way to spend a few hours. I learned a lot about PSG's, pickups and the like. What a great guy. Thanks Ed.
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Fender American Deluxe Telecaster, Gibson Les Paul Standard, Quilter MicroPro 8.

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

I have a going theory that every guitar has its own natural vibe, and there's a pickup out there that highlights that tone, and others that compete with it. An s10 won't resonate the same was as a d10, either. Sometimes the magic is just a bunch of compatible pieces fitting together just so.

Darrell Birtcher · Posted 21 May 2014 10:26 am

I'm very inclined to agree with your theory Tom.

I think the trick for pickup builders is to come up with a design that compliments the widest possible variety of guitars. The problem is that a pickup can get a bad reputation if it tends to work best on a limited number of guitars and doesn't sound it's best on the rest. It's not necessarily a bad pickup, it's just a bad combination.

Bill Duncan · From: Lenoir, North Carolina, USA

Pick ups are different. But if you are using a good pick up by any of the major pick up builders, the amp and effects used will have much more of an effect on the guitars' sound.
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You can observe a lot just by looking

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