Replacing tuning machines

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

My GFI SM-10 has these tuning machines. If you were to replace them, what would you recommend to use with as little modification needed?

Also, would anyone know who makes the machines in the above picture?

Reason I'm asking is I saw where Mark Roeder did his SM-10 (but changed the MSA keyheads). I'd rather keep the original keyheads if I can. (NOTE: This is Mark's picture below.)

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Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Maybe someone has the exact info for you and you won't need this info but if not:

http://www.stewmac.com/

has a large assortment of tuners and they have technical drawings showing all vital dimensions so you can tell if they will match up with your holes & spacing. It appears to me that these are identical to covered tuners, minus the covers. The covers pop right off so it should not be a concern.

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

Thanks Jon. I had been looking at their Grover 210s. I was hoping someone had already done it. I'll have to examine it more closely next time I change strings. I'm thinking at the least I will have to drill out the trough hole.
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Howard Montgomery · From: Topeka, KS US

These were direct replacements for my Fessenden. You would need to buy two sets, but not much more than the Grover pedal steel set. They look like the ones pictured above.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead_tuners/Gotoh_Tuners/Gotoh_Oval_Knob_Tuners.html

Len Amaral · From: Rehoboth,MA 02769

May want to contact GFI as the hole dimensions may be different and you wouldn't want to drill or manipulate the current hole. Just a thought?

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

If its not broke, don't fix it.

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

That's just it Jack, they are getting sloppy.
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Per Berner · From: Skovde, Sweden

These look like they would probably fit (compare measurements first!). Probably not much better than the ones you have, though. I have yet to find "economy" tuners of any kind, especially non-adjustable ones with diagonal mounting holes, that are any good at all. They are simply not built neither to last nor function precisely, only to be dirt cheap.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead_tuners/Economy_Tuners/Economy_Open_Gear_3+3_Tuners.html?tab=Pictures

If I were you, I'd make or get a new set of keyheads (not drilled for mounting screws) and install proper tuning machines.

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

Thanks Per. I definitely want to replace them with a better machine, and the new keyhead may be the best bet. These would be easy to replicate with a couple of rectangular aluminum bars.
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Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Scott, I ordered 2 sets of 6 each Grover Replacement keys on MSA S10. Part 102-18C One of the things that I ran into was. I suppose to compete on the world market they had made the shafts slightly larger. The replacement set I got has hole size as .391=25/64. Would fit a 10mm hole. I though 10 holes drilled out would be easy. I got the holes drilled out and then came the screw that holds the tuner from rotating. It had a head to large to go down beside the gear case. It was a hardened self taping screw. Had to put them in my lathe and turn them and grind the head down with a Dremel tool with a wheel. What I thought would be a 3 hour job. Took several hours. Check close and measure to fit. Good Luck.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I would contact GFI. They may have replacement tuners that will fit without major modifications. The ones they use on their other models may fit. That would be better than trying to make something else work.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

" they are getting sloppy."

Hmmmm! Tuners should last a long time! Can you see wear in the gears? Can you tighten the screws that hold the gears on?

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

Scott,

Are you sure you need new tuning pegs? It would be pretty frustrating to install new tuning pegs, and then find out that the tuning problem is still there, wouldn't it?

In my experience, it's unusual for tuning pegs to go bad unless they are really really old and/or weren't maintained properly, or have been abused by letting them hit the bottom of the guitar case because the guitar wasn't supported properly in the case.

Are the strings not returning to pitch after engaging the pedals?
- If the roller-nuts are sticky, that can cause the strings to not return to pitch. (You didn't put any of that so-called "dry" Tri-Flow with paraffin [sold in bicycle shops] in the roller-nuts, did you? That will definitely mess up your roller-nuts.) Mad

There are a couple of other things that may be going on with your guitar changer or return springs that could be causing tuning problems.

Before you replace these pegs, it might be worth a call to GFI to describe the problem, or have an experienced repair-person take a look.

Good luck.

Dave

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

I have talked to GFI. I have the older version of their SM-10, which has the open machines pictured at the top of this thread. Their newer Ping tuners or keyheads will not fit the older version.

These have some slop in the gearing that makes it had to get right on the note. Normally, with these, you have to go below the note until the slop releases, then try to sneak up on the tone.

If anyone knows a way to adjust these to get rid of the slop, let me know.
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Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

The standard practice when tuning is to go lower than pitch and then bring the string back up to pitch. Regardless of what tuners are used and whether a pedal steel, lap steel, 6 string guitar, etc.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Can you tighten the screws that hold the gears onto the tuner shafts? Or are there no screws?

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

John, there are screws, I'll try that. Thanks
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Is it not natural to tune any stringed instrument from below? It avoids any misleading friction or backlash. Fiddle players do it, and they've no moving parts to worry about - they're just making sure the friction in the peg is working the right way.
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Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

I understand that you "tune up" a stringed instrument. I am looking at doing the replacement because of the slop in the machines.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Yes, I agree the slop is annoying as I have Grover machines similar to yours, good once but old now. If I overshoot, some of them are laborious to get back down. I don't plan to change them until I do a complete overhaul, so meanwhile I accept them as a test of concentration Smile

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Charles Priesing Jr. · From: Maine, USA

Hi Scott,I replaced the ping tuners on my gfi sm10 with Grover rotomatics. They won't quite fit on the original key heads so I made new ones from 3/4" aluminum square stock. I cut with a saber saw, shaped with files and sanded. I used the original key heads as a template and cut holes with a drill press then polished. The job took a while as I made some mistakes. Measure twice, cut once. Definitely worth the effort. The ping tuners worked OK but felt sloppy to me. The Grovers can be adjusted a little tighter for the thin strings and feels more positive. I will try to post photo's. [img]

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Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

Charles, you da' man! That's what I was looking for, and thinking about doing. I even have access to a metal bandsaw. One question (I think)... did you use the original mounting hole locations in the guitar?
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Charles Priesing Jr. · From: Maine, USA

Scott, I did not drill any new holes in the guitar and kept the original string angle and spacing as close as possible. I did end up having to shim #5 and 6 string tuners very slightly because they touched. My guitar tunes quick and easy now and stays that way.

Scott Duckworth · From: Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies

Sounds like a project for me. Thanks again for the info!
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I may, in fact, be nuts. However, I am screwed onto the right bolt... Jesus!

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

You can consider Sperzel as well. Be sure when you get them you have 5 of each shafts, they come in sets of 3x3...fit should be ok, the Steel guitar guys didn't re-invent the hole size ...
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