Who invented E9/B6 Universal?

David Doggett · Posted 14 Nov 2003 7:09 am

My question is: who recognized that removing the D string on E9, adding 3 more low strings of the E chord, and using the E lower lever would give you a B6 tuning that was identical to the traditional C6 tuning, and thereby giving you 90% of both E9 and C6 on one neck? Who thought of this? Who built the first one? Who played the first one? And when?

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Great question.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I have not a clue. Not sure it was invented per se. In other words, IMO, it was simply a necessary next step in the evolvment of our incredible instrument.

I say this because when one lowers the E's on our E9th copedent, it is the same as plopping down on the bottom neck, EXCEPT for what you said about the D note and the other 3 strings. So I see it is a natural evolution rather than an invention.

Note, I would be sad IF anyone perceived hurt from my words. By that, IF someone did truly invent it, then I stand corrected, and sincerely apologize,

carl

Michael Haselman · From: St. Paul

Ever since I first heard of it in the '70s, it's been synonymous with Reece Anderson. He could probably shed some light.

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Marrs D-10, Webb 6-14E

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

1971,I purchased a D12 MSA with what I was told had an extE9th without the D on it,with the following.

Es lowered,7th string F#-G,A,B&C pedals...

With A/B pedals down and F#-G lever engauged,from the 7th back it was the same note for note as C6 with the 8th (boo wah)pedal.I think that was one reason I never learned much C6.There is a lot of stuff there for just about anything you /I wanted to play,country/southern rock at that time. I now have an S12,5+5 standard E9 with G#/E on 11 and 12.

The only one I was aware of at that time had anything different than E9/C6(pedals)was Mr. Anderson.

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Bill Ford

[This message was edited by Bill Ford on 14 November 2003 at 10:40 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

This is my take on it.

I've been using various permutations of Bb6, B6, and E9/B6 since about 1975 and have never really played a 10-string tuning. I got the idea of putting the C6 changes (rather than Reece's Bb6 changes at the time which were/are somewhat different) on the bottom from Winnie Winston's book in '75 or so and about that time I went from Bb6 to B6 as a base tuning. By the time Jeff Newman's universal teaching material came out I had been using essentially the same tuning for more than a year. The one thing I can crow about a bit is putting E to D on the 8th string on a knee lever, as a dual purpose way to get the P6 C6 change AND get the equivalent (well, almost) of the 9th string on E9.

I certainly don't claim to have invented the tuning, but I was one of the earliest practitioners, I suppose. I can't imagine playing any other tuning. 10-string E9 and C6 seem so limited to me that I always go back to the universal.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 14 November 2003 at 11:05 AM.]

David Doggett · Posted 14 Nov 2003 10:40 am

I'm thinking Reece too, but maybe there were others he was getting some of his ideas from. Or maybe, like Carl says, it just evolved from among a whole bunch of players.

Reece Anderson · From: Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.

Amazing coincidence....I have been working on an essay concerning this exact subject for the past few days.

I appreciate those of you who are so kind as to suggest I was involved in the evolutionary process of the universal tuning. I will address this subject in detail and post it on this forum soon.

David Doggett · Posted 14 Nov 2003 11:45 am

Thanks, Reece, looking forward to it.

Sounds like if anyone is aware of anything about this history that Reece might not be aware of (if that's possible), now is the time to post it here or drop him a line.

Ivan Posa · From: Hamilton, New Zealand

I believe Bob Simmons was one of the earliest universal players....IP

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

I to am looking forward to hear all this back story.
I am sure it was part of an evolution on the intrument.
But the question for me is :
Who 1st put the name too, after realisinh it's uninersall nature? I bet Reece has that info.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

David,
It was clearly DESIGNED to be universal. It didn't just happen.

Also, we need to determine our definition of a universal tuning.

Mine is:
A universal tuning is a single set of notes and pedal/lever changes that duplicate those of the standard 10 string E9 and C6 changes.

Was Julian Tharpe's E9/6 or Zane Beck's tuning a universal tuning? Not a very effective one by my definition. They are VERY MUSICALLY LOGICAL and are great tunings, but they would not allow the player to read tab written for E9 or C6 without really putting on the thinking cap. That was one main objective for the tuning I play - to be able to easily relate to players and teachers who play E9 and C6.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Doug Seymour · From: Jamestown NY USA (deceased)

I want to give Reece credit for a universal tuning......but maybe I heard of him, MSA etc, before I ever heard of the E9/B6. I was first a C6th player (having copied Jerry Byrd and idolizing every thing he did.....the things I believed to be impossible to do on a steel guitar!) and probably because of that, I was very impressed with the first recording I heard of Reece playing jazz & then turning around & with the same tuning getting the "Nashville" sounds, before I had ever tried E9th! I didn't meet Jeff til a workshop
Jim Thompson sponsored in Washington PA in 1979. A buddy of mine had gone the year before (and just told me about it after the fact!) My brother had inspired me with his love of jazz piano playing (Bobbe's Dad) I guess I had first wanted to be a jazz guitarist (like Oscar Moore w/the Nat Cole Trio) but I didn't ever get there. Along came a steel player on the radio (ABC network's 101 Ranch Boys from York PA w/none other than our great musician Leonard Zinn!}
and I had to get one......I had already heard Alvino's big band chords on his pedal steel by then. A bit different than Bud Isaacs Nashville approach.

Roger Shackelton · From: MINNESOTA (deceased)

Jeff Newman published the E-9th/B-6th tuning in his column in Guitar Player Magazine. I believe it was in the early to mid 1970s. He said he was not the one who came up with the idea, but was merely passing along the information.

I recall that he wrote at the end of the article, "What is one fret among friends?"

Roger

[This message was edited by Roger Shackelton on 15 November 2003 at 01:24 AM.]

[This message was edited by Roger Shackelton on 15 November 2003 at 01:26 AM.]

Andy Alford · Posted 15 Nov 2003 3:54 am

Bob Simmons

George Macdonald · From: Vancouver Island BC Canada

My 1974 MSA was ordered [through Tom Bradshaw] as a B6th/E9th universal with 6 pedals and 6 knees. Although my set-up has evolved slightly over the years, I have always lowered strings 4 and 8 from Eb to D and raised the top Eb to E on a knee lever. Another knee raises 4 and 8 to E. I now play a new Carter with 8 pedals and 6 knees and the same B6th/E9th tuning that has all the changes of a D10.

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David Doggett · Posted 15 Nov 2003 12:47 pm

My interest in posting this question has to do with Larry's definition; i.e., the E9/B6 universal that duplicates the standard E9 and C6 necks in one neck. Moving the whole thing a half or whole step would still qualify. Other "universals" such as Reece's Bb6 or Zane Beck's are different animals. But they are of course still of interest to the extent that they preceeded and contributed to the thinking that produced the E9/B6.

I am not very familiar with Bob Simmons. Can anyone shed some light on his music, career and recordings?

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

That's really cool, George. Bud Carter built my first sto-bought universal guitar in '76. My first one was a birdseye D-12 MSA I took the back neck and pull components out of early in 1975.

Where did you get the initial idea for the tuning?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

George Macdonald · From: Vancouver Island BC Canada

Larry, The idea for most of the changes for my B6th/E9th must have originated with Maurice Anderson and Tom Bradshaw. I realized at that time that Maurice Anderson's universal was Bb6th but I wanted mine tuned to B6th so I could relate to the easier [for me,] frett positions. Before that guitar I had a 12 string MSA tuned to A6th and the A and B pedals lowered the C#s to B and the As to G#. My 74 MSA is now back in the Dallas area where another Forum member had Bud Carter re-do the set up to an E9th universal. That Forum member also is getting some instruction from Maurice Anderson. Small world. By the way Larry, you have a great web site and I have picked up some good ideas from your set-up including the 11th string E to F# on your "C" pedal. It works good with your 6th pedal [my 5th] on the bottom end. George

George Macdonald · From: Vancouver Island BC Canada

Correction: Last line should have read: 11th string raise to F# works well with "B" pedal on lower strings.

Scott Henderson · From: Camdenton, Missouri, USA

I agree with larry. and IMHO keeping your pedal setup on a uni similar to the "mainstream" e9/c6th set up can make it easier. I also think that is what shys some away from it. Julian did play a very interesting set up that was not very friendly to someone wanting learn from basic e9 and c6th tabs. I play a uni with a standard emmon set up on both sides od the tuning.(8&5) But my philosophy may differ from some as I don't try to combine the two setups. When I play e9 i use the standard e9 setup...when i play b6th i us ethat end of the tuning. Thats just how I learned to play them. I also play a double ten and no problem moving to the seperate tunings of e9/c6.
Who invented the uni? don't know but God bless em. It's been a lot of fun adn very good to me. See my web site for free b6th licks and stay tuned for my next book about the b6th tuning.
scottyhenderson.com

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Tom Bradshaw presented the idea of an A6/D9 universal in the February 1972 issue of Guitar Player magazine, and provided some tab for it in his April 1972 column. If you raise that tuning a step, it's not too far from the E9/B6 in use today.

I'm sure that Tom's articles got a lot of people thinking about the idea.

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

I have learned that it is a dangerous thing to say that some particular person "invented", "discovered", or "developed" anything (about the steel guitar or just about anything else). Having read about everthing I could get my hands on about the steel guitar, up until the Forum began providing so much I couldn't keep up with it, I don't believe it is possible to be exactly sure about who or what was first on much of anything. For example, I was told that Zane Beck invented the idea of knee levers on the steel guitar. When he was inducted into the HOF and I was doing his plaque, I nearly indicated that "in bronze." At about that same time, a friend gave me a very old Hawaiian acoustical guitar that had patented knee levers on it! I then knew that Zane hadn't done it first.

But back to the E9th universal tuning. I do know that Maurice Anderson and I did a lot of communicating back when he was working on his Bb6th universal tuning and I was working on my A6th universal. Reece went on to perfect his universal tuning by playing it brilliantly. I went on to play my A6th for years and loved it, getting fine E9th sounds from it (I and Reece raised our third tones on the basic tuning to get into a 9th; his being into an Eb9th and mine into a D9th). Regarding Julian Tharpe, whom I knew quite well, he came up with his tuning a few years later, and it was much different from both of our tunings. Julian had two necks combined into one (about 24 strings as I recall) and it was hard to tell where one bank of strings ended and the other one began.

I had never heard of an E9th universal tuning until Jeff Newman developed it. I knew Jeff well and we talked about his tuning often. Jeff had been challenged by one of his students to play Buddy Emmons' intro to Night Life on an E9th. Jeff got most of it, but realized that he would need a 12-string guitar. He got one, figured out how he could do it and expanded the tuning to include all the basic pedal changes on his modified (no lower D string) E9th tuning. Jeff's basic tuning and the layout of the changes needed to duplicate the C6th pedal changes, is the basic copedent for today's "Universal" E9th. Until someone with more accurate information can come forth, I would have to conclude that Jeff Newman is the "father" of the modern universal E9th. ...Tom

[This message was edited by Tom Bradshaw on 16 November 2003 at 06:03 PM.]

David Doggett · Posted 16 Nov 2003 10:18 pm

Tom, that is all very interesting, and complements and fills out what Reece has now posted in a separate thread. b0b is right that your D9/A6 was just one whole step lower than E9/B6. But was it otherwise different from Jeff's E9/B6? Could you post or describe the copedent of your original D9/A6? And was Jeff's original E9/B6 pretty much the same as his is today?

Winnie Winston · From: Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.

I would have to agree with Tom. Jeff did an interview in Steel Guitar or Guitar Player-- I forget which-- in which he mentioned that I was fooling with a 14 that was an Extended E9th, and it looked like an interesting way to go.
But I kept trying to figure out a way around the 9th D string-- I liked it and didn't weant to lose it by moving the 8th down or the 10th up...
Then Jeff started screwing around with it and took off the D-- which gave him the three extra bass strings needed.
So... I'd say that although Maurice, Zane, and Julian used interesting "universal" tunings, that Jeff-- with his depth of E9th and C6th, was the first to really do it.

JW

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