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Topic: Is there a market for "Bakelite" Pedal Steels??? |
Ed Naylor
From:
portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Nov 2003 9:26 am |
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| This past weekend getting responses on my prototype Bark-O-Lot causes me to consider building a limited number of "Bakelite" pedal steels.My question is the type players that would by it. Also should be single,double, 3/4 ,C6 tuning etc. I am in the process of putting one together, but need input. All input will be appreciated. It is now Q and A time. Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works |
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Nicholas Dedring
From:
Beacon, New York, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2003 10:30 am
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Do they even still manufacture bakelite? I heard it was superceded for the basic uses it was designed for by newer plastics. It might be hard, I think, to get materials made... the small number, or complete absence of materials manufacturers might make the stuff prohibitively expensive.
I seem to recall it's pretty heavy, too.[This message was edited by Nicholas Dedring on 04 November 2003 at 10:31 AM.] |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2003 10:57 am
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If I was to consider building a bakelite steel, I would first seek thru legal research; IF, there was ANY reason why one could not build an exact replica of the famous pre war Rick; that many have soo associated with the name "rickenbacher"; with without being sued.
Assuming there were no forseeable infringments, I would find a builder who could, and would, build one exactly like the pre Aug 10. 1937 B models. Except for possibly a better tuning key and mylar caps instead of wax caps. I would restrict the production to only 6 and 7 stringers. No 8 or 10 stringers would be considered.
NO other change would I permit. Because I believe EVERY single change Rick made, after the highly sought after model was first created, was in essence taking a step backwards.
I believe this is the only way one could achieve the ultimate non pedal steel guitar sound. And even here, there would always be some that would say,
"sure don't sound like the original ones"
Even though they might indeed sound precisely like the originals.
carl |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 4 Nov 2003 1:26 pm
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I like the idea, and you've got little to lose, after all, if it doesn't fly, you can always run a "bake sale".....  |
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Ed Naylor
From:
portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Nov 2003 2:00 pm
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| Rick- I don't mean to sound rude,but,Coca-Cola and Colonel Sanders never let thier "Secret Ingrediants" be known. My Fiberglass "Pedesonic" which I started building in 1968 was a material that also was used by NASA. To this day I have not revealed the "Material". I am trying to put a guitar on the market that people would enjoy going back to the "Old" sound. ED |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 4 Nov 2003 4:05 pm
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With all due respects to any inventor, the scientific equipment of today negates keeping any material's "secret formula" a secret! The tiniest piece of a material or bit of solution is all that's necessary to do a complete analysis with any one of several "tools". Either a mass spectrometer or a scanning electron microscope will do the job, revealing not only every ingredient, but the precise ratios of each, as well.
The advent of computerized laboratory equipment effectively ended the day of "secret ingredients", even those used by Col. Sanders.  |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 4 Nov 2003 4:05 pm
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| I don't know, would you have to play it blindfolded to find out how it sounded? |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 4 Nov 2003 4:34 pm
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| I read somewhere that Leo Fender made the K+F lap steels of Bakelite. They were made in molds, heated in his kitchen oven, is that true? It seems like one could duplicate any of the low-tech methods used in the 1930's or '40's today, if he wanted to. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2003 6:05 pm
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It takes moderate temperature and high PRESSURE to "set" bakelite. Leo must of had one serious "pressure cooker" 
It really was not a "low tech" technique ... basically the same process is still used today for thermoset molding (it's just computer based).
Although the bakelite polymer was very cheap and easy to synthesize ... the steel mold required great skill in machining.
Once the bakelite was set ... you were stuck with whatever the mold "spit out" ... the inner surfaces of the mold had to have a mirror like surface in order for the polymer to have a smooth, even finish. Being "thermoset" ... re-melting, etc. was out of the question.
[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 04 November 2003 at 06:33 PM.] |
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Jackie Anderson
From:
Scarborough, ME
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Posted 4 Nov 2003 6:13 pm
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| Personally, I wouldn't want to know what Col. Sanders puts into chicken.... |
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Ed Naylor
From:
portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Nov 2003 5:08 am
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| Somehow my post has gone "Technical" instead of the initial question of trying to determine if people want a Pedal Steel with a "RICKY" sound.In 1961 I dismanteled my old "Ricky" and used the Pickup in my first Pedal attempt. Luckily I put my Ricky back together and still have it. Again my question - Is there a market for a RICKY-PED. ED |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2003 12:07 pm
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This is a technical forum, Ed:
| Quote: |
| Instruments, mechanical issues, tunings, techniques, etc. |
Surveys and such usually belong in the 'Steel Players' section.
I think that the answer to your title question is "no". The market is too small to recover your startup costs.
I certainly wouldn't buy one.
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 Bobby Lee
-b0b- quasar@b0b.com
System Administrator
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Ed Naylor
From:
portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Nov 2003 2:31 pm
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| My idea about steel guitars is this alone--Get people interested. For example today I sold a S-10 to a new wannabee{took in a Multi-Kord} and his little 2 year old was really fascinated with the guitar. I am going to build him an ElCheapo and let him get started.Who knows. Several people have expressed a desire about the Ricky-Ped and I am going to build some. At least I will know if it was a good idea or not. . Ed |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Nov 2003 3:05 pm
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Ed. I've been racking what's left of my brain to think of what they call it. Maybe Masonite, but it's the stuff they make circuit boards out of. Basically resin impregnated cloth, pressure made. I've got a couple pieces of it that came out of transformers that I've made specialty bike body parts/ hangers out of, and actually a nice knife handle. It's very durable for anchoring axles, rods, etc. It totally uniform, and is not so light weight that it'd be thought of as skimping the way other "space age materials" possibly erroneously, might be.
I'm sure you could order it in bulk cheaper than other specialty meduims, looks good, and is solid.
Just a thought.
EJL
PS Didn't they quit making guitars out of bakelite because of War needs for plane and radio instrumentation apps?[This message was edited by Eric West on 05 November 2003 at 03:06 PM.] |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2003 4:49 pm
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Eric, thats the Linen Phenolic I mentioned above. They even have one with the registerd trademark "Bakelite".
Rickenbacher kept making bakelite steels thru the '50s. In the late '40s they came out with a GREAT one-piece bakelite student model ... The Academy. I have 2 .. snappy little things. Too bad they only made them for a couple years
PS: You really hit the bullseye with the "Bullseye" bars ... I'm lovin' mine.
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Ed Naylor
From:
portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Nov 2003 6:37 am
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| Rick- How about posting a pic of the Bakey student model???What scale did they use?? Ed |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 6 Nov 2003 7:03 am
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I have photos of all my Rickys (except for my new '47 T-logo D6) on my site ...
Heres a link straight to the Museum
To see the Academy and the Ace click on "Postwars" and scroll down.
These cuties are 22.25" scale and actually "sport" tiny horseshoe magnets ... 1 1/8" wide (vs. the standard 1 1/4" postwar).
They were available in many colors (red, white, brown).
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www.horseshoemagnets.com |
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Ed Naylor
From:
portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Nov 2003 8:57 am
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| Thanks Rick- Nice display. I will sit and take a longer look later today. ED |
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Ed Naylor
From:
portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Nov 2003 9:19 am
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| Update-I have lots of good response on the "BAKIE" idea.One of the prototypes I am working is a S-10 6floor 6 knee C6. Apparently most want a C6 version not E9. At any rate we will soon find out what really works. Ed |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 13 Nov 2003 11:50 am
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"I don't mean to sound rude,but,Coca-Cola and Colonel Sanders never let thier "Secret Ingrediants" be known. My Fiberglass "Pedesonic" which I started building in 1968 was a material that also was used by NASA. To this day I have not revealed the "Material"
Just wondering exactly what you're saying here, Ed. NASA stole your secret material from you, or did they have it first? If you have it first and someone else uses it later, they "stole" it, but if NASA has it first and you use it after them, it's OK? Secret ingredients my rear...as already posted there's no way to keep anything secret from chemical analysis. A bakelite Rick-type lap steel? Yes. Bakelite pedal steel, my vote is No. Just MHO.
On the K&F lap steels, the way I got it was they were made of wood, Leo used the oven to shrink the acrylic covering over the wood bodies. Sure Jody (as well as others) can shed some light on this if he's reading.
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Smiley Roberts
From:
Hendersonville,Tn. 37075
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Posted 13 Nov 2003 4:11 pm
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Back in the 70's,DEKLEY,made their steels out of "Pakkawood",a process of combining wood w/ a resin,or plastic,under high heat conditions,to give the cabinets a higher density factor. Maybe,Jim Smith could enlighten you,more,on this process.
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©¿© It don't mean a thang,
mm if it ain't got that twang.
www.ntsga.com
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Ed Naylor
From:
portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Nov 2003 4:41 pm
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| Jim Phelps- NASA did not steel my material. There are tons of materials mfg. and sometimes they can be used for things the inventer nver dreamed of. I have spent many years researching Steel Guitars and have an open mind to new materials and marketing ideas.Does the old Sho-Bud "HOOK" keyhead cause a sound different with a 3 piece "Rail" keyhead. ???As I have said 1000 times I "JUST WANT PEOPLE TO TRY STEEL GUITARS." Regardless of brand. Ed |
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