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Topic: Is there a Sweet Spot for PSGs? |
Bruce Morrison
From:
Panama City Florida, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2014 6:36 am |
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I recently got bitten by the bug to try my hand at this sonic alchemy, and as it got serious, I joined the board. I've been going through old posts of a similar nature and thought I could boil my currently state of confusion down (at least for a second) to maybe get some direction:
Ok, I'm a beginner (edit: no, not even a beginner) and I don't know much (except for what I've gleaned here). Like everyone, I quickly discovered that I'm not going to walk down to my local music store and try a few PSGs out to get a feel for the water. So I start looking at guitars based on price (which, from what I gather from research, is about as poor a methodology as I could have stumbled on if I TRIED).
So... I'm not above buying something a little better than I need now, since I'm an occasional optimist. But most of the nicer $1500 guitars I see strike me as potential problems (the most common refrain I see is "I don't know anything about this thing, but $1500 please". So that number is arbitrary, yes?
It very well may be that the only SMART move is to buy one of those Carter Student models brand new (is this even a current maker?), or again, maybe the TRUE sweet spot is somewhere else. I started to say I'm not foolish enough to think that the answer is necessarily more money... but then history suggests I occasionally AM that foolish. I don't want to start out my relationship with ya'll with lies 
Anyway, your thoughts are appreciated... |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2014 7:01 am
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There is simply no way to know what you'll need. I bet most players cycle through a series of guitars as their needs shift. It'd basically be dumb luck to hit the target the first time - unless you have an Association on the ground where you can go and try things, listen, talk.
I got *seven years* out of a Carter Starter, but I'd outgrown it and I wasn't in a good position to buy anything musical the last five years.
The Starter has a 4X3 copedent - three floors, four knees. That gets you a full chord scale with one bar move - ( I may err in this list, so ... )
I,
II ( BC ),
III ( LKR, the E lever ) or (BC up two frets ),
IV ( AB ),
Vdom7 ( LKR+B ),
VI - ( A )
VII ( LKL and down two frets )
plus the right knees - a D# to D for a dom7 on open strings and I think a B-Bb for a dim or domIV among other things.
That is not all the moves, but brevity...
The Starter can not reasonably be "reprogrammed". Neither can a Sho-Bud Permanent nor a Maverick.
I'll say that a good doubleneck should cost around at least $2000-$2500 - and that is pretty dern cheap, really. Singlenecks are less, a 12 can be less. Sometimes. I'd advise not trying to get the last hundred bucks out of a guitar.
The MSA guitars are plentiful and at a good price. Likewise Carters. Watch those on the "For Sale" list here and I think a price model will form in your head. If you can do your own work, then that opens up more guitars. The guys who sell parts from here are very good at helping you figure out what you need and quite patient.
And if you suspect you're pointed at C6, there may be an argument for no pedals first. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 16 Mar 2014 7:08 am
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The Carter Starter is among the least smart moves (and they're not available new, Carter folded several years ago when John Fabian died). The cabinets feel cheap and insubstantial and the knee lever stops have legendary problems.
Justice Pro-Lite, Encore and Stage One (engineered by Zumsteel and built by Doug Earnest) and the Mullen Discovery are all in that range and are pro quality axes.
If you like vintage stuff, this one looks good and in the same range http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=262459
Or this one
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=261912
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 16 Mar 2014 7:10 am
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| Quote: |
| So... I'm not above buying something a little better than I need now, since I'm an occasional optimist. But most of the nicer $1500 guitars I see strike me as potential problems (the most common refrain I see is "I don't know anything about this thing, but $1500 please". So that number is arbitrary, yes? |
Tell us about your background! Musician? Guitar player? Or, is the only thing you've ever played a radio or CD? Do you have an amp? There's nothing wrong with starting on lap-steel, and playing that for awhile to see if you can master the bar, picks, and tuning an instrument - might be a good idea. Also, keep in mind that a pedal steel isn't the only thing that requires a large outlay of cash just to get your foot in the door. Sure, you'll have to spend a lot more than if we were talking straight guitar, but that's the nature of the beast. Guitar is like a bicycle, and pedal steel is more like a motorcycle. (You don't see many $199 motorcycles, do you?  )
I recommend you find a nearby mentor, someone who already plays who can help you with your concerns. Lastly, remember that you may be laying out a lot of money, but there's good chance you can get most of it back should things go awry. If you lose a few hundred in the process, just think of it as short vacation.  |
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Rick Barnhart
From:
Arizona, USA
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Bruce Morrison
From:
Panama City Florida, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2014 7:23 am
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I'm truly a bass player who plays guitar. I've recently started teaching myself a bit of rudimentary theory, and in fact, the Circle of Fifths (and the revelations that entails) is actually what made the beauty of PSG click for me finally.
Musically I'm all over the board, but in fact, for a large part of my life I thought I didn't like country music. I was wrong of course... I didn't like what I heard on the radio, but I always liked the real country I heard (turns out). And the more pedal steel I listen to, the more I love old country.
That said, I think my trajectory lies more along the Alt-Country genre. I had pretty much decided that the E9 was where I was going to spend my initial effort for this reason (I love the way the C6 sounds, but the most convincing work I've heard from it seemed to not match the stuff that's been inspiring me).
And... at the core of this plan is that I want to write music... and the music I hear in my head has Pedal Steel in it. And since I don't know any players in this area, I figured... if you want to get something done...
Thanks all for the help btw, it's already narrowed my search. |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2014 9:22 am Emmons GS-10 for $750.00 -- act now before it's gone
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You won't find a better sounding student model than this one, if sound is any consideration in your decision. At approximately half your budget, this is a great place to start. You can always add more knee levers at a later date, or trade up to a pro model.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=262409
As a disclaimer, I have no affiliation with the seller, and to the best of my knowledge, have never met him.
I'll be the first to admit that I am biased toward old push/pulls. I love my GS-10 because it sounds just as good as my D-10, and you don't need a forklift to pick it up.
If I did not already have a nice little sunburst GS-10, I'd jump all over this one in a New York minute. |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2014 10:57 am
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Everyone has their favorite brands - which they believe strongly are "the best" - but there are many good steels of many brands. And some not-so-good ones....
If you buy on the forum, and buy used, you will most likely get a fair deal for a steel without hidden problems (do ask the seller!). And you can sell it for what you paid for it later, so shipping cost is all it takes to try it out....
Pay a little more now, and don't worry - you can get your money back out if you need to later. And don't hesitate to ask here about the brand/models you are considering - if there is an inherent flaw, someone will let you know...
Part of the learning experience - and the fun - is to work your way through a few steels as your knowledge increases and you develop your own style...
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Bruce Morrison
From:
Panama City Florida, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2014 11:19 am Ability to setup yourself is a feature...
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| If any systems are more open than others, that'd be a feature in their favor. |
I noticed in another thread a link to steelguitar.com. The "Owners Manuals" section was very illuminating, and suggests they all at least give you enough information to get started adjusting and maintaining. So I suspect that's less of a concern than I thought.
Last edited by Bruce Morrison on 16 Mar 2014 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 16 Mar 2014 12:13 pm
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| You might want to contact the Florida Steel Guitar Club. They have meetings and jam sessions. I'm not sure of the schedule though. There are plenty of guys, that, you can talk to about steels and learn from them personally. It's difficult doing things online or over the phone. Eyes up close and hands on are a better way to go. |
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Bruce Morrison
From:
Panama City Florida, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2014 12:27 pm
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| John De Maille wrote: |
| You might want to contact the Florida Steel Guitar Club... |
That'd be a great idea, the only problem being they meet about 5 hours away from me... in fact I suspect heading towards Mississippi or Louisianna might be closer to me (I live in Panama City, which is in the Panhandle of Florida... aka Lower Alabama).
But you are correct that I'd greatly benefit from being able to lay hands on before I even considered buying... |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 16 Mar 2014 12:42 pm
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If you're lucky and or patient some really interesting opportunities occassionally show up in local markets.
When I was looking for my first steel, there were two sho bud mavericks up for sale locally, and a cosmetically challenged MSA S10 (lacquer bubbles due to a bad storage environment) in 3x4. The thing had brass gauged roller nuts, and in barely used mechanical condition.
I got that guitar for less than a korean made electric guitar...a pro instrument for an entry level price...can't beat that for value. |
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Bruce Morrison
From:
Panama City Florida, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2014 7:32 pm
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| Quote: |
| If any systems are more open than others, that'd be a feature in their favor. |
I noticed in another thread a link to steelguitar.com. The "Owners Manuals" section was very illuminating, and suggests they all at least give you enough information to get started adjusting and maintaining. So I suspect that's less of a concern than I thought. |
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Peter den Hartogh
From:
Cape Town, South Africa
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Posted 17 Mar 2014 2:18 am
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From experience I can conclude that if you buy a used guitar, there will be issues......always......
If you do not like tinkering and exploring the instrument, I suggest you buy a used guitar from a reliable dealer who has the skills to remove all issues and who is prepared to give a warranty.
Or otherwise get a new guitar as has been suggested above.
From my signature list you can see I bought a lot of "issues" and most issues have been solved with the help from members of this wonderful forum.
Thanks to all this tinkering and exploring I know the instrument's workings well enough to be able to do all maintenance by myself. Very useful, because there are no Pedal Steel mechanics in South Africa.
_________________
1977 Sho~Bud D10 ProIII Custom; Sho~Bud SD10 The Professional ; ETS S10 5x5;
Fender 1000; 1993 Remington U12; 1978 Emmons S10 P/P; GeorgeB Weissenborn;
Fluger Cat-Can; Asher Electro Hawaiian; Gibson BR4; Fender FS52; Guyatone 8str;
Fender Resonator ; Epiphone Coronet 1937; Rickenbacher Ace; Rickenbacher NS;
Dynalap 8string; Harbor Lights 8string; Aiersi Tri-Cone; Fender Stringmaster |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Mar 2014 11:04 am
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| Peter den Hartogh wrote: |
Thanks to all this tinkering and exploring I know the instrument's workings well enough to be able to do all maintenance by myself. Very useful, because there are no Pedal Steel mechanics in South Africa. |
I hear there's this guy P. den Hartogh who knows how to work on 'em down there. He puts his resume in his sig and everything...
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Justin Emmert
From:
Greensboro, NC
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Posted 17 Mar 2014 1:41 pm
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| I started on a Carter Starter 6 months ago and recently upgraded to an Emmons. As a fairly new player myself, I didn't see paying good money for something I wasn't sure I would stick with. Basically, buy what you feel you can afford. Do your research for what you want to buy and know what it's worth. If you buy used and take care of it, you will be able to get your money out of it if you decide to sell it. |
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