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Topic: Answer this tuning!! question. |
Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 2:58 am |
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I know steel players will never agree on tuning but ponder this and let's hear Your views.
For discussion purposes let us consider strings 3,4 and 5. only.With the "A" pedal depressed.
The E note is tuned to Zero.
I have studied the tunings of three world class players and here are their readings for these strings
in cents
| Tab: |
Player 1 String 3 0.00
4 0.00
5 0.00
Player 2 3 -6.7
4 0.00
5 -18.0
Player 3 3 -3.4
4 0.00
5 -16.7
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Why do these players always sound "in tune"when the difference in readings for the 4th and 5th string is so different?
Best regards
Billy
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 3:26 am
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I'd say it's because ET will sound fine alone because we are used to hearing it from keyed and fretted instruments.
The JI (the 2nd and 3rd examples) will sound fine (but strings 3 and 6 will stick out because they're off.
But no matter how you tune it (within reason), if you adjust bar placement with the ear/brain/hand feedback loop, it'll work.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Gary Cooper
From:
Atmore, Alabama
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 7:48 am
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Billy, you have some excellent data. I am not sure but I don't think the greatest majority of us could hear the 'difference.' The players I personally know, all tune straight up. Not sure how Paul Franklin and Tommy White tune. Billy, thanks for your post. Gary Cooper
_________________
GFI Ultra SD-10; Nashville 112; Hilton pedal, George L Cables; Pearse bar; Live Stings;Walker seat by Billy Knowles. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 7:55 am
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Paul has said he tunes by ear. I think Tommy does too. That probably means they flatten the thirds, which includes the C#. Because they sound best that way
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Gary Cooper
From:
Atmore, Alabama
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 8:03 am
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Lane, I believe you are right on target. The truly great players just know what is and isn't in tune. I think their ears are trained so well they make the necessary adjustments without relying on tuning charts. Excellent point. Gary
_________________
GFI Ultra SD-10; Nashville 112; Hilton pedal, George L Cables; Pearse bar; Live Stings;Walker seat by Billy Knowles. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 8:16 am
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Gary, it IS worth mentioning that many top pros use different schemes (and I'm pretty sure that Buddy goes straight up).
And some use a backslant instead of the F lever for 7th and diminished chords.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 9:43 am
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Is there any centralized grouping of research regarding the measurement & quantification of how much in-tunedness, and out-of-tunedness* can be heard, in which directions, and what contexts, by whom? One would expect great differences due to training, and there's at least a pungent whiff of possible genetic components regarding perfect pitch, but can you ever get a sample size large enough (or experiment design exacting enough) to separate out your dependent and independent V's? There's just got to be directional effects – is the higher note, or the lower note, “out†of tune? The order they're played in, portatamento to and fro; differences in regards to chord harmony, triads vs.... more notes; how does the relative accuracy (and intentional inaccuracy  ) of a triad in JI, and ET, affect the ability to “place†a 4th note in tune with it? etc. Surely larger intervals like 10ths are harder to “tune†than 3rds. (Why?)
Great Scott, there's probably at least several full-time, lifelong careers there already, it might take a couple of years asking the wrong questions poorly just to zero in on better frameworks. Maybe this has even all been done already and they snuck it right by me – how cilia. I've read a bit of work done in regards to “perfect pitch†but they mostly couldn't seem to get past the cuteness of it; I wish there were more categories of writing somewhere between An Idiot's Guide to Pop Science for Dummies and Whoa, Dude - Totally Incomprehendo.
*(For sure just learning how to speak Engritch more betteredly mite hep 2...) |
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Bob Hickish
From:
Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 10:13 am
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I try to stay out of the tuning discussions , however i will read them and find that no one brings up the difference in the the overall tuning of all the band members - I’v noticed that the way a rhythm / lead player tunes might clash with the way I tune my steel , so what I’v tried to do is get a couple cords from them - say an G & E or a C & E and find what i think is the problem tone - its usually the 3rd , I will adjust to them and i’m happy with what I hear --- just my 2 cents - pun intended  |
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Micky Byrne
From:
United Kingdom (deceased)
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 10:36 am
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Gary and Billy...Paul Franklin put a mention in here some time ago. He just tunes his E's and B's and just uses his "ears" for the rest 
Micky "scars" Byrne.....U.K. |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 4:30 pm
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I tune straight up. I have very little trouble being in tune, however the guitar picker has it tough sometimes. I've known him to bust guitars because of tuning problems.
I got a Double Anniversary Gretsch, and a Wildwood Fender acoustic, because he said they wouldn't tune right. He was going to bust them.
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Bob Hickish
From:
Port Ludlow, Washington, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 4:43 pm
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| Bill Duncan wrote: |
I tune straight up. I have very little trouble being in tune, however the guitar picker has it tough sometimes. I've known him to bust guitars because of tuning problems.
I got a Double Anniversary Gretsch, and a Wildwood Fender acoustic, because he said they wouldn't tune right. He was going to bust them. |
if you can beat ’em join ’em --- the defense rests   |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Mar 2014 11:11 pm Re: Answer this tuning!! question.
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| Tab: |
Player 1 String 3 0.00
4 0.00
5 0.00
Player 2 3 -6.7
4 0.00
5 -18.0
Player 3 3 -3.4
4 0.00
5 -16.7
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Billy,
I fixed the formatting of your chart.
Are those the tunings with the A pedal down? I mean, is the E still 0.00 when the A pedal is down?
The interval E to G# will sound in tune if it is in the range of 386 to 400 cents. 386 cents is harmonically perfect, and 400 cents is equal temperament. If E measures 0, G# can be anything between -14 and 0.
The interval C# to E will sound in tune in the range of 300 to 314 cents. If E measures 0, C# can be anything between -14 and 0.
I suspect that your measurements of strings 3 and 4 were made without the A pedal down. When the A pedal is pressed, the pitch of string 3 and 4 will drop a few cents because the stress on the cabinet increases. If E drops below zero, the acceptable tuning range of the other strings drops, too.
Lastly, no guitar tuner is accurate to tenths of a cent. The string itself doesn't maintain that accuracy as it vibrates. It changes. People can't hear differences less than 2 cents.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 9 Mar 2014 2:27 am
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Thanks b0b for doing the formatting.
I did not take any physical readings on these three strings.
A pedal is depressed all the time (for purposes of discussion)I understand that due to cabinet drop the E string will alter some but this would complicate the issue considerably.
The readings I have tabulated were not derived by MY experimentation they were obtained from observing the charts of other players.
My query was that if Buddy tunes "straigt up" as in example 1 and Jeff Newman tunes as in Example 2,Sid has stated that He has used the same tuning for several guitars, why do I hear them playing in what to Me is perfect tuning?
Do We all put unnecessary emphasis on tuning when our ears can accept anything within an "acceptable" range.
Best regards
Billy |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Mar 2014 2:45 am
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| Billy Murdoch wrote: |
...
Do We all put unnecessary emphasis on tuning when our ears can accept anything within an "acceptable" range.
Best regards
Billy |
Shush, you. You're giving away secrets.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 9 Mar 2014 2:54 am
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Lane,
Is this Eureka!! time?? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Mar 2014 3:12 am
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Right. Sitting in your basement, either by yourself or with BIAB, you can sweat the details of microtuning.
In the real world, the Tele is tuned to ET, but open: but he squeezes every fretted note to sharpness and the fiddler is sorta hitting flat and the keys are flawless ET here's your painstakingly perfect JI.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Billy Murdoch
From:
Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.
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Posted 9 Mar 2014 3:22 am
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| Excellent!! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 9 Mar 2014 6:20 am
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| Gary Cooper wrote: |
| The truly great players just know what is and isn't in tune. I think their ears are trained so well they make the necessary adjustments without relying on tuning charts. |
That's it, exactly. It seems that most all amateurs try to come up with some "system" (tuning method or group of offsets) that will replace the skills that the real pros have spent many years developing. Sorry folks, but it ain't gonna happen. Yes, a tuner comes in handy in certain situations, but if you think that any tuner or set of charts is all you need to be able to tune and play in tune, you're in for a big surprise when you start playing this thing! 
I wish that weren't the case...but it is. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Mar 2014 6:32 am
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I agree, Donny. A tuning chart should stem FROM getting in tune, not lead you (not you, Donny: the generic second person) to being in tune.
We should learn to get in tune, play in tune and stay in tune. Then make a chart of what YOU think is in tune, so that you can tune quietly.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2014 9:20 am
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| Billy Murdoch wrote: |
The readings I have tabulated were not derived by MY experimentation they were obtained from observing the charts of other players.
My query was that if Buddy tunes "straight up" as in example 1 and Jeff Newman tunes as in Example 2,Sid has stated that He has used the same tuning for several guitars, why do I hear them playing in what to Me is perfect tuning? |
Buddy Emmons wrote in a forum post long ago that he tweaks his E9th thirds by "a couple of cents". Jeff Newman's A pedal tuning assumes that the E will drop 4 cents when A+B is pushed. Sid's tuning also accommodates some cabinet drop.
| Quote: |
Do We all put unnecessary emphasis on tuning when our ears can accept anything within an "acceptable" range.
Best regards
Billy |
I believe you're correct, Billy. Most "tuning problems" are in the hands, feet and knees of the player. A lot of it is bar positioning, but I've also noticed people failing to push the pedals and levers all the way to the stop.
The "stoned ear" effect has driven many players (including me, for a decade or so) to the point of distraction. My advice: Trust your tuner and play music.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jay Riddle
From:
Pennsboro, W.V.
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Posted 13 Mar 2014 7:28 pm Tuning
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| I think all instruments would be better in tune using a temper tuning. I tune guitar, mandolin, steel, etc. with JN temperate tuning. Overtones in every chord you get agree with one another. It's a preference of straight up or sharp and flat off the zero mark. Tune the root note with the meter and strike harmonics on it to tune the rest. I give the key a little extra nudge when the waves quit too and it does make a difference. It's ok if your band members don't and tune on zero. All the instruments seem to be agreeable with one another when I play along with them. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Mar 2014 11:42 am
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Jay, How can you tune a fretted instrument to JI?
A C-form chord (on guitar) has the thirds on the 1st and fourth strings (assuming a four-finger C), the G chord has the third on 2 and 5, the E-form has it on 3, the A on 2, D on 1. That means every different chord fingering wants a different string flatted.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jay Riddle
From:
Pennsboro, W.V.
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Posted 17 Mar 2014 1:18 pm Ji
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| It balances every fretted chord you play Lane. And by the way you're not going to be perfect when you sight with your eyes moving up and down in key with your tone bar anyway from open tuning. Tune a guitar with a chart and find out how much better it sounds if you don't believe me. Cheers... |
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Jay Riddle
From:
Pennsboro, W.V.
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Posted 17 Mar 2014 10:22 pm Foot Note
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It's so refreshing that we have such polite folk on this forum that want to trash your techniques of playing and tuning to try to make themselves look like supersteelers. You have to love that.  |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 17 Mar 2014 10:40 pm
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| This doesn't even take into account amateur guitar players who bring un intonated instruments to the band stand that are out of tune by the time they get to the 4th fret. Or have 3 year old strings on their guitar, or don't use an electronic tuner calibrated to the rest of the band. I have personally seen idiot light tuners be off the rest of the bands tuners. When I was playing regularly we all checked out tuners against each other very couple of months. All guitars were mechanically maintained properly and had fresh strings. We were never out of tune. Makes a huge difference in the people that you are playing with. |
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