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Topic: Steelers and in ear monitors |
Richard Tague
From:
Cowden, Illinois, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2014 5:01 pm |
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Just wondering...how many steel players out there use in-ear-monitors? And do you use both left and right or pull one out?
I started using IEM's about 12 years ago, while playing lead guitar for a classic rock cover band. The rhythm player thought he really needed his Super Champ on 11. So, I bought some IEM's. Wow, what a difference. Although my rack unit is a 2 channel, at 1st I only used 1 channel for the band mix and left "my amp" ear out.
After years of using "cheap" ear buds, 2 years ago, I decided to go ahead and have molds done and get custom buds. Night and Day difference...I've never looked back. The tone quality of such tiny, tiny drivers is truly amazing. Going back to holding the groove on bass, I really couldn't imagine how I could get a good bass tone thru those little ear buds. To my amazement, the bass reproduction is astonishing.
My current setup is a little different than some. I have a 2 channel IEM unit. I mic my cab with 2 mics...sending 1 to the FOH and the other goes right into my rack IEM unit. Left ear is for the band (I ask the sound tech for a "house mix" minus the bass.) The right ear is all me. If I need more of me, I have full and total control.
My most previous band, we all used IEM's. All of the us used extension cabinets, which we set off stage. So, even the need to "heat the tubes" didn't effect the stage volume. No more mic bleed, wedges, cords, etc. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 24 Feb 2014 6:07 pm
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| Hopefully, your band has a good sound! But sadly, most of the bands I see using in-ears have no idea how bad they really sound out in the audience. |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2014 7:31 pm
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I used in-ears and no amp for several years in the church band I played in for several years. The key is, you have to have a good sound man, and we had an excellent one who grew up listening to all kinds of music, especially steel guitar, he is my son. We had Aviom 16 channel personal mixers also which allowed each musician to set up their own mix.
I always used both earphones, it's bad for your ears to only use one.
Here's a link to some songs that were recorded live during services, I think we sounded pretty good.
https://app.box.com/shared/i1nv5kpsd2 I played steel, guitar, guitar synth (cello, sitar etc), mandolin, and bass on various songs.
_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2014 8:14 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Hopefully, your band has a good sound! But sadly, most of the bands I see using in-ears have no idea how bad they really sound out in the audience. |
Of course, most bands that don't use in-ear monitors have no idea how bad they really sound out in the audience, either! |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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John Lacey
From:
Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada
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Posted 25 Feb 2014 5:02 am
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| It's nice after all these years to have some control over what is heard on stage. It eliminates the off-balanced bleed from the other instruments and in the limit could modify the onstage volume, if used correctly. |
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Michael Hartz
From:
Decorah, Iowa, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2014 7:56 am
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| I have used in ear monitors for about 11 years now and absolutely love them. I currently use a custom molded dual driver set from Fidelity in- ears running through a Shure PSM 600 wireless pack. I am using one of Brad's Revelation rigs with the TC electronics processor running in stereo direct into the board and it sounds absolutely incredible. I use both ears in and I get that big stereo sound, like listening to a CD. |
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Bill L. Wilson
From:
Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2014 8:38 am Can't Want a Dead Stage.
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| No headphones, No in ears, and No Dead Stage. Movin Air, and Partin' Hair, is what it's all about. Cowboys and Roughnecks, like loud honky tonk music, and they'll go somewhere else if you don't play it. Shoot, the jukeboxes in these places is louder than our band. I usually go out to my truck and rest my ears, between sets. And we must be doin' something right, cause some folks will drive 2hrs. one way to see us play. When I set in on guitar, at The Rodeo Opry in OKC, I use headphones, but I don't care for'em, even with a personal mix, and using my Deluxe Rvb. It's just not moving enough air. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 25 Feb 2014 8:48 am
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I have Westones - not top-of-the-line and I don't have custom ear-buds but I'll take IEMs over too much level on stage from monitors and/or amps any day.
Of course, you need to have trust in the sound-board operator but overall I prefer it.
_________________
Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles and Martins - and, at last, a Gibson Super 400!
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Ken Campbell
From:
Ferndale, Montana
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Posted 25 Feb 2014 8:58 am
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Quick question. What if you don't use a sound man? We run through a pa of course but we tend to set levels before the show and adjust during breaks...
Thanks
Kc |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2014 9:35 am
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I used molded, dual driver earphones also. They worked well even when I played bass. As has been said before, it's nearly impossible to know how it sounds in the audience, from the stage. For a band to sound their best, a "GOOD" sound man is a must.
_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro. |
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Michael Hartz
From:
Decorah, Iowa, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2014 9:36 am
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| Your PA board should have aux sends which you could use to run your monitors off of. Our band uses a Crest XRM 20 rackmount monitor board with a passive splitter I wired off of our main snake stagebox before it goes to FOH. I woud suggest using a pre fader aux send if your PA has one that way your aux send mix is not affected by levels going to mains. |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2014 10:02 am
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When I payed a theater show, I preferred one ear bud in, one out so I could get a sense of what was going on on stage.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Jim Means
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2014 2:57 pm Question
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You guys that mentioned that is was dangerous to pull one bud out, what is the problem with that? A few years ago our church tried them when I was playing bass in the band and I absolutely hated them. I felt completely isolated from what was going on around me. They were using the Aviom system that Darvin mentioned. I did not have the personal molded earpieces however, just the buds. They have since gone back to using them. Of course I don't like an extremely loud stage volume either.
Jim in Missouri
Last edited by Jim Means on 26 Feb 2014 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 25 Feb 2014 3:00 pm
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| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Hopefully, your band has a good sound! But sadly, most of the bands I see using in-ears have no idea how bad they really sound out in the audience. |
Of course, most bands that don't use in-ear monitors have no idea how bad they really sound out in the audience, either! |
That may be true, Brint! As I see it, the trouble with them is two-fold. First, there's the fact that you're totally at the mercy of your sound man. If he is half-deaf and a tin-ear, all those wonderful sounds you're hearing may never make it to the speakers. Second, like most "gizmos", they can give the band a false sense of security, thinking that a device they use can make up for problems with players' dynamics.
Look, I have no problem with their use in huge venues with many hundreds, or thousands, of people. There, they do serve a useful purpose. But time and time again, I've gone into smallish clubs (places that seat less than 150 people) and have seen players donning ear-buds, setting up the plexi around the drums, and building mountains of speakers in the wings. The results are usually the same...no dynamics, no separation, and nowhere (other than the men's room or parking lot) to escape the painful din.
Like it or not, every piece of equipment that's ever been used is also capable of being misused (a fact that some seem to overlook).  |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2014 4:20 pm
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| Just because you sound bad is no excuse to stop spending money, is it? That there's wild talk, can't lead to no good.... |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 25 Feb 2014 5:14 pm
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Here is a description of the problems associated with using only one earphone, from elsewhere on the web.
To overcome some of the limitations of IEMs, such as isolation from the audience, some performers will wear just one IEM. This is not a recommended solution, and it is important that performers wear an IEM in each ear, for many reasons. Our body's natural hearing protection mechanism, the tympanic reflex, works with both ears together. Its effectiveness is diminished when one ear is protected, because it leaves the open ear more vulnerable to loud sounds. There is also a stereophonic boost (approximately 6 dB) in perceived volume when two earphones are used together. You can try this yourself with a set of earphones and an MP3 player. Start by listening to just one earphone then putting in the second without turning up the volume. The perceived volume of the first earphone will seem to increase when the second earphone is added. Therefore the converse of this, using one IEM, means the volume must be 6 dB louder to get the same perceived volume, thus exposing the IEM ear to unnecessarily excessive volume. It also halves the listening time before the onset of hearing damage.
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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro. |
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Jim Means
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2014 11:32 am Thanks Darvin
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Thanks Darvin,
That makes sense. I had pulled one out for the very reason stated: isolation. To me, it took away the advantages of playing with live musicians. I don't have any problems using headphones in the studio, I expect the isolation there, but the purpose for being in the studio is different than playing in a live situation with an audience and other musicians that you draw energy from.
Jim in Missouri |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2014 11:41 am
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Jim, I think you HAVE to have a good sound man you can trust to make the IEM thing work. These guys are few and far between. We have visited several churches in the last year or so and some of them have surprisingly BAD sound. Some have really good musicians and singers, but the audience would never know it. It takes someone who has a good ear for mixing to make a good FOH sound, not just someone who can "run sound".
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Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro. |
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Richard Tague
From:
Cowden, Illinois, USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2014 3:06 pm
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Well, since I started this thread, I guess I can reply, too.
I guess I'm a little confused when I hear, "A good sound tech is a must." That is true, regardless if you're using IEM's or wedge monitors. The sound tech, not only sets/controls the levels out front (which as a musician on stage, you have NO idea if they're doing it correct to begin with), but they also control YOUR wedge monitor on stage. Taking out the "out front" sound and sticking with only the monitor levels. If the musician stage right needs more stage left guitar... What does he do? He tells the sound tech, "Hey, I need more stage left guitar, in my monitor." He doesn't go to the stage left guitarist and say, "Hey, I can't hear you...turn it up more." And if he does, all he is doing, is making the "out front" sound, sound worse and worse because, now the sound tech has to bring the "out front" levels down for that instrument. The key to making IEM's work well is no different than making the monitor wedge work well. The sound tech controls the stage monitor levels...not the individual musicians (in most cases). My current sound tech's board (a PreSonus 24ch), however, allows the musicians with an iPad, iPhone, iPad to controls their own monitor mixes and levels, right there on the stage...in real time. Which, according to the sound tech, "really frees him up to focus to the sound out front."
As to the "Feeling isolated." Yes, that is one thing that nearly everyone who uses IEM's have troubles with, at first. Most just need to "give them a chance." Personally, the way I have overcome that, was to get a Lavalier mic and run it into the "aux mic" on my body pack. This works great for when we need to talk to each other on stage, during a song. Some body packs do not have this, however. Although, a single omni mic, placed in front/center stage usually cures this. It also, enables the musicians to "hear" what the audience is doing.
As to the "The places I play want to 'feel the air move'." With all due respect, there is NO way your tiny little 100-200 tube watt amp can "move the air" like FOH mains. As a bassist, I currently run a 1200 watt Genz-Benz amp, thru, at times, a single 215 cab. Sure, I have enough juice to, basically, disembowel the first 6 rows. However, considering FOH runs a heck of a lot more juice thru considerably larger mains, which can disembowel and cause vertigo for nearly 1/2 the audience...There is NO WAY I can compete. And why would I even try!?!? Even when I run my Mesa 400, as long as my tubes are hot enough to get the tone I desire...let the FOH make the volume!
As to the "...Gizzmos...thinking that a device they use can make up for problems with players' dynamics." Actually, a good set of IEM's will make you more aware of your own problems. IEM's will bring to your attention flaws in your playing, be it excessive string/finger talk on round wounds, to bar scratch on psg's, to vocalist hearing themselves with poor breath/mic control. All of which, usually never gets to the audiences ears, because the sound tech is doing his job. So, in reality, IEM's can make a musician better at his/her craft, rather than hinder them.
My current buds are Quad drivers by 1964Ears.com. After getting custom IEM's, I realized the key is a good seal. The better the seal, the better the tone. There is no way $3 Walmart ear buds, that fall out each time your head turns can give you the true tone of your amp as a set of IEM's that are the exact mold of your ear canal.
Don't get me wrong, I didn't start this thread nor reply to it to make anyone mad, feel degraded or anything else. I'm just discussing. |
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Darvin Willhoite
From:
Roxton, Tx. USA
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Posted 26 Feb 2014 3:19 pm
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I never felt isolated using IEM's, the church where I played had ambient mics on each side of the auditorium and they were on a channel of the Aviom mixer so we could control the amount of ambient sound we wanted.
Your points are well made Richard.
_________________
Darvin Willhoite
MSA Millennium, Legend, and Studio Pro, Reese's restored Universal Direction guitar, a restored MSA Classic SS, several amps, new and old, and a Kemper Powerhead that I am really liking. Also a Zum D10, a Mullen RP, and a restored Rose S10, named the "Blue Bird". Also, I have acquired and restored the plexiglass D10 MSA Classic that was built as a demo in the early '70s. I also have a '74 lacquer P/P, with wood necks, and a showroom condition Sho-Bud Super Pro. |
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David Cubbedge
From:
Toledo,Ohio, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2014 9:07 am
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I use in-ears in several different bands including at church and I love them. I can finally hear what I need to and best yet, our system allows us to dial in our own monitor mix thru my iphone. Plus, I don't have to lug my 85 lb. Twin Reverb all over creation, I use a Line 6 Pod XT.
I didn't buy custom made ones, I bought the $100 Shure SE215. Very solid design and wires.
One band I play in still uses amps and big wedges for monitors and I can tell you my ears can't take the noise anymore.
_________________
Red Emmons D10 fatback #2246D with sweet Hugh Briley split cases, Black Emmons S10 #1466S, '73 Fender "Snakeskin" Twin Reverb, Peavey Nashville 400, Line 6 Pod XT, Fender 400, Fender Stringmaster Double-8, too many guitars, one bass! |
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Michael Hartz
From:
Decorah, Iowa, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2014 7:16 pm
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| Richard, give me your impressions on the 1964 Ears Quads. I've been looking at getting another set of customs especially since Fidelity Ears is pretty much belly up. I keep getting drawn to 1964 Ears over all the others out there.and would love to know how they sound for steel and or guitar. Thanks |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 28 Feb 2014 2:58 pm
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| is there a self contained, cheap, iem system that will allow enough volume fluctuation to cover pretty deaf ears? |
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Richard Tague
From:
Cowden, Illinois, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2014 4:03 pm
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| Michael Hartz wrote: |
| Richard, give me your impressions on the 1964 Ears Quads. I've been looking at getting another set of customs especially since Fidelity Ears is pretty much belly up. I keep getting drawn to 1964 Ears over all the others out there.and would love to know how they sound for steel and or guitar. Thanks |
Michael, my main gig is a bassist, however, I do occasionally fill in on 6 string. So, really I'm kinda biased towards wanting to hear a lot of bottom end and cutting the highs...even when I play 6 string. I'm using Quads, which are designed for bassists, with extended lows. Maybe if I were a 6 (or more) string player full time, I would consider the V6 series, as they have extended highs.
Ship time, from time I sent my molds to them until I received my new ears...approx. 3 weeks. The fit and finish of them are great. Extension wires are very flexible and sturdy. Of course, normal hard case, cleaning kit, etc., etc., etc. And the price is 1/2, compared to Ultimate Ears. So, if I were to need to replace mine, I'd order from 1964, again. I'm very happy! |
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