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Topic: Volume Pedal Epiphany |
Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 7 Feb 2014 11:31 am |
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I was digging through the SGF topic search for info pertaining to tone and the Lil' Izzy which I just ordered. I came up with some posts regarding volume pedals and the differences b/w unpowered pot pedals and the electric light activated ones. I have both, but years ago I stopped using my Ernie Ball pot pedal because I thought the Goodrich electric pedal would give me what I wanted. So last night I hooked up the Ernie Ball to my new Zum Encore and the Cube 80XL amp and was blown away by the beautiful clarity and tone. I was keeping the Ernie Ball as a spare, but it is now my primary pedal and will never go back to electric. This is just my experience and may not translate to other guitars or amps.
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Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord,
Last edited by Fred Glave on 7 Feb 2014 9:11 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Lyle Clary
From:
Decatur, Illinois, KC9VCB
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Posted 7 Feb 2014 3:22 pm
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I ordered a pot pedal from Doug at Zum Encore. Have not got it yet but will give you my critique when it comes.I have been using a Hilton for 8 years.
_________________
2006 Zum D10 8x8,1969 ZB Custom D10,
10 3x4 Peavey Nashville 112 Peavey LTD 400 2014 Zum Encore Wood Grain 4x5 Stage One pot pedal |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 7 Feb 2014 8:20 pm
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| Some of the older electric pedals were tone robbers~~ |
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Stephen Gambrell
From:
Over there
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Posted 10 Feb 2014 3:20 pm
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| MOR--LEY!! |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 10 Feb 2014 4:03 pm
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| Many top steelers still prefer to use pot pedals because of how they sound. |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 10 Feb 2014 5:57 pm
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Yeah, I think people make too much of all this. It's a volume pedal. If it weren't a piece of outboard gear, we'd never give it a second thought. How many six-stringers (or an other musicians) constantly worry about the effect on tone their volume knob is having?
_________________
Click here for the Index to Mickey Adams's YouTube video lessons
Insert impressive gear list here. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 10 Feb 2014 9:04 pm
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| John Scanlon wrote: |
| How many six-stringers (or an other musicians) constantly worry about the effect on tone their volume knob is having? |
Don't know, but that reminds me that...
Back in the -70s I rewired the volume pots on my Les Paul to work backwards - output became input, so I could trim volume and load for both PUs individually to get just the right sound. Still have that guitar, and it still sounds just right 
For PSG I use buffer-amp with variable load as first stage, so pretty much doesn't matter what kind of VP I use as long as it feels and works right under my foot - it has no effect whatsoever on tone. |
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Gordon Hartin
From:
Durham, NC
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Posted 11 Feb 2014 7:25 am
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When I compared the pot type Goodrich vs Ernie Ball pedals, I found that when using the Ernie Ball pedals I lost a bit of the Hi-End sparkle. This was on guitar and steel.
I was not using a buffer at the time, so when using an Izzy or some other buffer this might not be as noticeable.
Gordon |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 11 Feb 2014 7:56 am
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| John Scanlon wrote: |
| Yeah, I think people make too much of all this. It's a volume pedal. If it weren't a piece of outboard gear, we'd never give it a second thought. How many six-stringers (or an other musicians) constantly worry about the effect on tone their volume knob is having? |
I couldn't agree less. I consider the volume pedal an essential part of the tone chain.
Both with a and without a buffer (Li lzzy), my Hilton or Telonics pedals are like "removing a blanket that was laying over my amp"..... when compared to my Emmons pot-pedal of 25 yrs.
Worse yet,I had an EB pedal for about 6 hours, until I realized how much tone it bled out of my signal whereupon I promptly returned it back to Guitar Center (where it belongs) |
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Tim Marcus
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 11 Feb 2014 8:08 am
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I agree with Tony
you can search for my posts over the years and watch me go from a "passive pot pedal" only type to the "active Telonics pedal" only type.
An active pedal is a game changer - its all about buffering against loading down the pickup on the instrument. You can do that with the Izzy, any active pedal, or simply by putting any pedal with a buffer before the volume pedal.
its all about the sparkle!
_________________
Milkmansound.com |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2014 8:24 am
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| Steel guitar pickups were designed to provide a certain sound when loaded with a pot pedal, cords and an amplifier. To my ears, they sound best that way. Having more sparkle or changing this system does away with the vintage tone that I love. I have tried Steel Drivers, Lil Izzy's, Rev pre-amp and the Hilton pedal and in all cases the tone sounds artificial and sterile. I just finished a recording with my pot pedal with no buffer and there are tons of highs in it but the overall tone is that classic tone achieved by the pot pedal, cords and amp acting as a system to produce a great classic tone. |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2014 10:50 am
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When I use my Goodrich active pedal through any of my amps, the tone is fair but on the muddy side. Playing through the Ernie Ball pot pedal the tone is clear and bright. That is my observation. Maybe the Ernie Ball isn't the best pot pedal to use, but the evidence for a pot pedal seems to be pretty strong, at least to me. I suppose I could try a more expensive Hilton or Telonics pedal but I think I've got nice tone right now that I had been missing.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 11 Feb 2014 11:39 am
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| Personally with my Roland 80GX I get the best tone with a passive pedal with the Lil Izzy at the output. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2014 1:16 pm
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I mean this kindly, and as a partially-unreformed rock 'n' roll baby I love me my share of raucous notes, but: quite a substantial clot of people, upon hearing something like a ShoBud, into a Hilton, into a Twin Reverb, would kindly ask you to put the damn blanket back ON the amp.  |
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Daniel Policarpo
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Posted 12 Feb 2014 4:13 pm
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| John Scanlon wrote: |
| How many six-stringers (or an other musicians) constantly worry about the effect on tone their volume knob is having? |
You haven't been over to the Telecaster Forum, have you?
I came onto the pedal steel with my Morley Little Alligator, and it worked fine. But I had to try a pot pedal. In that spirit I tried an inexpensive, nice big ol' chrome Fender pot pedal and it made a bit of a difference in the feel, more than anything, but I do like the way pot pedals seem to carry a little pool of gain at the end of at the throw. That'll get some sustain on your strings. |
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George Kimery
From:
Limestone, TN, USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2014 6:34 pm Volume Pedal Ephany
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| I don't really understand the thinking behind this or that pot pedal sounds better or worse than another brand or model. Isn't the pedal just a simple mechanical device that allow's us to turn the pot shaft with our foot? Wouldn't all pot pedals sound the same if they all had the same pot's installed? Maybe I am missing something here. The taper and the "feel" would certainly vary, but the sound ????? |
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Ray McCarthy
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2014 3:21 am
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| George, I have both Goodrich and EB pedals with exactly the same Dunlop pot in them, and the highs are a bit more sparkly with the Goodrich. I can't explain it except that maybe the position of wires is different, causing some kind of capacitive effect in the EB??? |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2014 7:10 am
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George, you are correct. A 500k pot will sound the same no matter which pedal it's in. There might be a slight, and I mean slight, tonal difference between a carbon track pot (old Allen Bradley, or PEC) and a conductive plastic pot (Dunlop), but I've never analyzed them in that way. The internal wiring lengths are so short that they won't have any impact on a guitar's tone.
The only cause for a tone difference would be if the 2 pedals don't rotate the pot to the same "full on" position.
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Best regards,
Mike |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Feb 2014 7:41 am
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Mike,
Your post makes me wonder if anyone has ever measured how much capacity a pot might present to the circuit. Wouldn't that be a surprise if after all of these discussions, we find that the degree of capacity between the resistive element of a pot and it's metal case is enough to alter frequency response? That might explain why the plastic Dunlop pot gets better reviews.
Food for thought. . . Thanks Mike.
Best regards,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024 |
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Mike Wheeler
From:
Delaware, Ohio, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2014 4:55 pm
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That would be a fun analysis, Craig. Unfortunately I don't have the right kind of equipment anymore. I suspect, though, that the result would be extremely small, if any, meaningful capacitance. But fun to find out just the same.
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Best regards,
Mike |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 13 Feb 2014 5:56 pm
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Mike,
The wheels are already in motion. My Chief Engineer will take some measurements with his bridge and get back to me.
Sincerely,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024 |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 13 Feb 2014 6:26 pm
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| I measured the old style George L's right angle connectors at 4pF and the wiring through an old Univox Fuzztone in bypass mode at 12pF. Even a bypassed effect or other unit can have noticeable capacitance especially if the signal wires are routed in close proximity to a metal cover. Really good Belden shielded cable close in design to George L's was about 10pF per foot, so it all adds up. In my case I lengthened the George L's cord to my amp by 5' to rolls off the highs a bit. I was unable to get the same effect by adjusting the amp controls. |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2014 2:54 pm
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| Daniel Policarpo wrote: |
| John Scanlon wrote: |
| How many six-stringers (or an other musicians) constantly worry about the effect on tone their volume knob is having? |
You haven't been over to the Telecaster Forum, have you?
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Actually, I have about 1,500 posts over there....I gotta get out more (hangs head in shame). The usual debate I see over there regarding volume knobs is which kind of pot to use - audio taper or linear taper. I don't recall anyone over there ever asking if they should replace their volume knob pot with a light-beam mechanism for tone reasons.
I'm not quite as dedicated to steel gear as many here, but it's a cost-benefit analysis to me - though it may have an effect on tone, there's a price breaking point for me. For the asking price of the Telonics, I'm fine with keeping my money (or spending it elsewhere, like on lessons) and continuing to use my Goodrich. I'm sure it's a fantastic product. That's just me.
I am interested in Doug's new volume pedal which is geared like a wah rather than strung. My most durable piece of gear is probably my wah which is going strong for 25-plus years now.
_________________
Click here for the Index to Mickey Adams's YouTube video lessons
Insert impressive gear list here. |
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Len Amaral
From:
Rehoboth,MA 02769
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Posted 18 Feb 2014 12:38 pm
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I find different pedals sound and sweep differently with different guitars, pickups and amp combinations. If you are talking classic tone, then you have to look at what was available to the players at the time that acheived that tone.
Also, when your calclating classic vibe I assume Sho-Bud, Emmons and MSA were the starting point in the chain? Volume pedal choice was slender in those days. Now we have a bunch to choose from. My 2 cents  |
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Quentin Hickey
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 2 Mar 2014 2:54 pm
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| Greg Cutshaw wrote: |
| Steel guitar pickups were designed to provide a certain sound when loaded with a pot pedal, cords and an amplifier. To my ears, they sound best that way. Having more sparkle or changing this system does away with the vintage tone that I love. I have tried Steel Drivers, Lil Izzy's, Rev pre-amp and the Hilton pedal and in all cases the tone sounds artificial and sterile. I just finished a recording with my pot pedal with no buffer and there are tons of highs in it but the overall tone is that classic tone achieved by the pot pedal, cords and amp acting as a system to produce a great classic tone. |
I couldnt agree any more! |
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