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Topic: Modes That We Actually Use |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2013 9:18 pm |
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Nice article.
There are so many sites about Modes... some I understand and some are so confusing, and they're all talking about the same Mode topic.
I like the articles that reference songs that I know.
I think for 3-chord AB/BC-pedal-mashin' country steel it's kinda hard to think in modes.
I often have to refer to JamBand or Pop songs to reference Modes.
Allman Bros and Grateful Dead songs are good for Modes (and they mainly use the 4 you mention).
Pop songs like Lean On Me or Like A Rolling Stone are good examples of Ionian.
A good example of a long Dorian solo is Pink Floyd, Another Brick In The Wall.
All Along The Watchtower = Aolean.
I would like to see a list of Country Steel Standards that fit the 4 modes you mention... I'm drawing a blank.  |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2013 10:39 pm
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Almost all country standards are in Ionian mode, Pete. It's the "major key" mode. Steel Guitar Rag and Sleepwalk are both in Ionian mode.
Kawliga (the verses) and Ghost Riders are in the Aeolean mode, what we normally call a "minor key".
12-bar blues instrumentals like Honky Tonk are in Mixolydian mode. I usually call it in the "key of E7th" even though there's no such thing, because people seem to understand that better than "E Mixolydian". It's very common to switch to a Dorian scale on the 4 chord, because the A7 chord (in E) has a G note in it. There's only one note difference.
Songs with a strong b7 chord like Sweet Home Alabama and Can't You See are also Mixolydian.
The Dorian mode (minor key with a major 6th) is the one that you don't hear country bands play very often. If a minor key song has a 1 minor and a 4 major chord, it's Dorian mode. The Em to A jam in Neil Young's Down By The River is classic Dorian rock.
The main point of my article is that these 4 modes are the important ones, and the other 3 are so rarely used that you shouldn't even bother with them. That simplifies things, I hope.
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2013 7:32 am
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I would agree with your 4 primary Modes.
The Intro to White Rabbit by Jefferson Airplane is Phrygian.
Always a crowd pleaser!
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2013 8:33 am
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Yes, there are a few popular songs that use an unusual mode for novelty. There's no improvisation in White Rabbit so all you really need to learn is the chords. If I played in a flamenco band, I'd have to know Phrygian mode. They don't normally hire steel players, though.
I play Caravan and I have no idea what mode the verse is in. Aside from the melody, you can solo on notes from a diminished chord and it sounds like you know what you're doing. Whatever works.
Until someone shows me a practical reason to learn them, I'll consider the other 3 modes (Lydian, Phrygian and Locrian) a waste of time.
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-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2013 8:43 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| Until someone shows me a practical reason to learn them, I'll consider the other 3 modes (Lydian, Phrygian and Locrian) a waste of time. |
There's nothing new to learn. You already know all those modes, because they are all the same scale (white keys on the piano). The only difference is which note you choose to call 1. |
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Bill Cunningham
From:
Atlanta, Ga. USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2013 9:58 am
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Earnest wrote
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There's nothing new to learn. You already know all those modes, because they are all the same scale (white keys on the piano). The only difference is which note you choose to call 1. |
I was introduced to modes in my junior college music appreciation class. We never made it that deep into theory in high school band. The music appreciation instructor had a "film" (back before DVD's) where Leonard Bernstein gave a simple explanation of all the modes starting on different white keys. I imagine it is on YouTube.
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Bill Cunningham
Atlanta, GA |
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Steve Hitsman
From:
Waterloo, IL
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Posted 30 Dec 2013 3:07 am
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| You may only NEED 4 but you may find that you WANT more. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Dec 2013 9:28 am
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
| There's nothing new to learn. You already know all those modes, because they are all the same scale (white keys on the piano). The only difference is which note you choose to call 1. |
It's those damn Greek names that trip me up.
_________________
-πππ- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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HowardR
From:
N.Y.C.-Fire Island-Asheville
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Posted 30 Dec 2013 9:28 am
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| I woke up in a bad mode this morning..... |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Jan 2014 6:37 pm
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| The only "mode" I know is Pie al 'a. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 13 Jan 2014 6:50 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
It's those damn Greek names that trip me up. |
Phryggin modes!
Earnest is right, though.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Don Griffiths
From:
Steelville, MO
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Posted 13 Jan 2014 10:01 pm
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Thanks bOb! I had just committed to thoroughly learning the modes again recently. It all helps!
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Shobud Pro1,BMI U12, Santa Cruz F, PRS Standard, Fender Twin Reverb, β53 000-28 |
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Leon Grizzard
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2014 10:40 am
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
| b0b wrote: |
| Until someone shows me a practical reason to learn them, I'll consider the other 3 modes (Lydian, Phrygian and Locrian) a waste of time. |
There's nothing new to learn. You already know all those modes, because they are all the same scale (white keys on the piano). The only difference is which note you choose to call 1. |
This is true, but there are ways to bring out the flavor of the modes, even though by definition they are just segments of the parent major scale.
The simplest way is by emphasizing the notes that give the particular mode its flavor. In the key of C, if you are playing over the D minor chord, emphasizing the note B, the major sixth of the dorian mode and of the D minor chord, it brings out the dorian sound.
Similarly, over the E minor chord, if you start on the root E and ascend, you will be starting with E, F, and that half step at the beginning is the signature phrygian sound. But ultimately itβs all just the C major scale.
Iβll tie this back to modal scales in a minute, but starting off, a way to really get the sound of the mode across is by using the arpeggio of the associated chord over a different change, which is not exactly mode scale exactly; maybe partial mode. This is just chord substation stuff.
The mother of all chord subs is using the ii7 over the V7. That is, over the G7 chord in the key of C, you can sub Dm7 for part of it. For example, over the G7 chord, start off by playing the Dm7 arpeggio, D F A C, then whatever further G7 type run or arpeggio. You really hear a change of sound.
Similarly, over the C chord, start with the Em7 arpeggio, E G B D. This will bring out the major seventh as to the C chord, B. Not good for all situations, but maybe on City Lights, or South of the Border. Over the V7, start with seventh scale degree chord, Bm7b5: B D F A. It brings out the ninth chord sound; it has the b7 and the 9 of the G9 chord.
In all of those situations, you can hear the change of mode from the subbed arpeggio to the regular chord. You can get the same thing using the full mode, if you do it with what are called the bebop forms of the scales. I donβt want to hijack the thread for a full explanation, but for example, when playing the phrygian mode (based on the E minor chord in the key of C), if you start descending from the note E (on the beat; even eighth notes), and put a chromatic passing note between E and D, so E Eb D, you will keep all the chord tones of the Em7 chord on the beat:
E eb D c B a G f E eb D c B a G etc.
You get off if you play a triplet or a rest or different note values, but by learning how to get the arpeggio notes of the chord associated with the different modes on the beats, you can add the different flavors of the modes to your lines.
(I donβt know the practicality of this stuff on steel. Iβm not a steel player, although I did just get a lap steel and spend last weekend frying my brain with it. I printed some stuff linked on Threadzilla, and tried Mike Neerβs major scale form through the cycle of fourths.) |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 2:31 pm
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| i will have go think about all this next time i am using the com mode. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Ulrich Sinn
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2014 2:02 pm
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Very much depending on what music is being played it is a worthwhile effort to study the modes of the melodic minor scale.
lydian b7
altered everything dominant 7
This gets the sound out of the 50s into more modern territory:
maj 7 #5
phrygian #2
the modes names referring back to the use rather than the starting note.
Doesn't work if the accompaniment does not play ball. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 2 Feb 2014 8:04 pm
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Dorian mode is very useful for soloing over the 4 chord in western swing tunes and in playing bluegrass workouts that are "modal". Tunes that have a flat 7 chord as a part of the basic progression and just about all the rock type tunes. Major (ionian) can work but sounds corny. If you want to get past chasing chords around the neck learning a bit about scales and modes will work wonders for your musicality. Once you learn how those basic modes lay on the fretboard very cool sounding chords start showing up all over the place.
Joe Wright has some fantastic materials available for learning modes and scales. Did my playing a world of good.
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Bob |
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Leon Grizzard
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2014 5:58 am
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
Dorian mode is very useful for soloing over the 4 chord in western swing tunes and in playing bluegrass workouts that are "modal". Tunes that have a flat 7 chord as a part of the basic progression and just about all the rock type tunes. Major (ionian) can work but sounds corny. If you want to get past chasing chords around the neck learning a bit about scales and modes will work wonders for your musicality. Once you learn how those basic modes lay on the fretboard very cool sounding chords start showing up all over the place.
Joe Wright has some fantastic materials available for learning modes and scales. Did my playing a world of good. |
Dorian built on which root? If you are in the key of C, and are playing over the IV chord, F or F7, are you saying C dorian, D dorian (the real dorian mode in C) or F dorian? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2014 11:04 am
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For a bluesy effect, I often play mixolydian on the 4 chord. Remember, mixolydian is just a fancy way of saying 7th. So in C, I'll play the F mixolydian mode over the F7 chord: F G A Bb C D Eb F.
I use my mixolydian licks whenever I hear a 7th or 9th chord. In a circle of 5ths tune, for example VI II V I, I'll play:
A7 - A mixolydian - A B C# D E F# G A
D7 - D mixolydian - D E F# G A B C D
G7 - G mixolydian - G A B C D E F G (same notes as C ionian)
C6 - C ionian - C D E F G A B C
The mixolydian mode is 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 1, so really it's just playing the major scale of the chord with a b7 in it.
_________________
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Last edited by b0b on 3 Feb 2014 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Feb 2014 11:14 am
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You can play Mixolydian scales as much as you want, but they lack spice. It is just as simple to play F Lydian Dominant over F7 (it is the 4th mode of C melodic minor). Sounds like a lot but here is what it is: A C scale with a lowered 3rd (F G A B C D Eb). The B natural over the F7 adds a very nice flavor. Vanilla becomes very boring after a while.
This is common stuff and many of those ear-catching licks that you hear your favorite players playing are simply just applications of it.
Like Bob said above, chasing chords around sounds just like that.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Leon Grizzard
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2014 1:55 pm
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
You can play Mixolydian scales as much as you want, but they lack spice. It is just as simple to play F Lydian Dominant over F7 (it is the 4th mode of C melodic minor). Sounds like a lot but here is what it is: A C scale with a lowered 3rd (F G A B C D Eb). The B natural over the F7 adds a very nice flavor. Vanilla becomes very boring after a while.
This is common stuff and many of those ear-catching licks that you hear your favorite players playing are simply just applications of it.
Like Bob said above, chasing chords around sounds just like that. |
There are lots of jazz uses for knowing the melodic minor scale (so I understand; I'm not a jazz player), and there ae books on the subject. The one that I know is melodic minor up a half step from the root of a dominant chord as having all the altered notes. (Note that I said "I know," not that "I use." When I try it it sounds great on the couch by myself and like clams at the gig.)
But my serious question is: if someone knows how to play the mixolydian scale, why not just tell them to raise the 4th scale degree? What is the advantage to thinking of it as a mode of some unrelated melodic minor? |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Feb 2014 3:16 pm
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| Leon Grizzard wrote: |
| Mike Neer wrote: |
You can play Mixolydian scales as much as you want, but they lack spice. It is just as simple to play F Lydian Dominant over F7 (it is the 4th mode of C melodic minor). Sounds like a lot but here is what it is: A C scale with a lowered 3rd (F G A B C D Eb). The B natural over the F7 adds a very nice flavor. Vanilla becomes very boring after a while.
This is common stuff and many of those ear-catching licks that you hear your favorite players playing are simply just applications of it.
Like Bob said above, chasing chords around sounds just like that. |
There are lots of jazz uses for knowing the melodic minor scale (so I understand; I'm not a jazz player), and there ae books on the subject. The one that I know is melodic minor up a half step from the root of a dominant chord as having all the altered notes. (Note that I said "I know," not that "I use." When I try it it sounds great on the couch by myself and like clams at the gig.)
But my serious question is: if someone knows how to play the mixolydian scale, why not just tell them to raise the 4th scale degree? What is the advantage to thinking of it as a mode of some unrelated melodic minor? |
Because a mixolydian with a #4 is not a natural scale, it is what is known as a synthetic scale. Melodic and Harmonic minor scales are synthetic. A synthetic scale is a diatonic scale with one altered degree. You can call it a mixolydian #4, if you want--same connotation as Lydian dominant.
By the way, if you use the altered scale over the IV7, ouch! It really should be used in the case of a V7.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links
Last edited by Mike Neer on 3 Feb 2014 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 3 Feb 2014 3:17 pm
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| Leon Grizzard wrote: |
| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
Dorian mode is very useful for soloing over the 4 chord in western swing tunes and in playing bluegrass workouts that are "modal". Tunes that have a flat 7 chord as a part of the basic progression and just about all the rock type tunes. Major (ionian) can work but sounds corny. If you want to get past chasing chords around the neck learning a bit about scales and modes will work wonders for your musicality. Once you learn how those basic modes lay on the fretboard very cool sounding chords start showing up all over the place.
Joe Wright has some fantastic materials available for learning modes and scales. Did my playing a world of good. |
Dorian built on which root? If you are in the key of C, and are playing over the IV chord, F or F7, are you saying C dorian, D dorian (the real dorian mode in C) or F dorian? |
Leon,
If the western swing tune is in C you play C dorian over the 4 chord.
One Chord = C major/ four chord C dorian...
If the bluegrass or rock type tune is in C you use C dorian. I hope this makes sense.
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Bob |
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