Wound strings go flat

Gary Mortensen · From: Elgin, TX

I just resturng my Georgeboards 8 string with an S.I.T. A6 set and am having major intonation problems. The would strings are going flat as I go up the neck to the extent that, at the 12th fret, I need to slant uncomfortably to keep them in tune with the unwound strings. Is this something lap steel players have to learn to deal with?
I've run into this before with lap steels and I just don't see what the problem is. I"m basically a Dobro player and I restring my resos all the time with no such problems.
Do I just have bad luck with strings or is there some other explanation?
Thanks,
Gary

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

Assuming it tunes true open either something has moved or the strings are crap.

"Ye cannae change the laws of physics" - Montgomery Scott

You probably knew that!

h

Ron Whitfield · From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA

The 12th fret area is notorious for being a dead zone on many steels, always look for a guitar that has the zing all the way past that spot. That said, your issue may not be as I noted, have you stretched the strings and broken them in?

Jim Williams · From: Meridian, Mississippi, USA - Home of Peavey!

I've noticed that dead spot you mentioned on more than one lap steel...what causes that? Anything that can be done?
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GFI SM10 3/4, 1937 Gibson EH-150, 2 - Rondo SX Lap Steels and a Guyatone 6 String C6. Peavey 400 and a Roland 40 Amps. Behringer Reverb Pedal.

Ron Whitfield · From: Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA

Jim Williams · From: Meridian, Mississippi, USA - Home of Peavey!

I have at least two guitars that this is noticeable on, an SX lap steel and an old Guyatone I bought recently. Doesn't make it unplayable or anything but just a noticeable difference in the sustain. I'll have to drag my old Gibson out and see if it has it, but I don't think so.
_________________
GFI SM10 3/4, 1937 Gibson EH-150, 2 - Rondo SX Lap Steels and a Guyatone 6 String C6. Peavey 400 and a Roland 40 Amps. Behringer Reverb Pedal.

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

The original post concerns intonation, not lack of sustain or responsiveness.

h

Jim Williams · From: Meridian, Mississippi, USA - Home of Peavey!

Yep, but I thought Ron's post sounded like he was talking about the actual sound as well. I don't have any intonation problems...didn't mean hijack the thread. Sorry Gary.
_________________
GFI SM10 3/4, 1937 Gibson EH-150, 2 - Rondo SX Lap Steels and a Guyatone 6 String C6. Peavey 400 and a Roland 40 Amps. Behringer Reverb Pedal.

Gary Mortensen · From: Elgin, TX

The tone and volume up the neck seem OK, it's strictly an intonation problem. I'm going to see if I've got enough spare wound strings to replace the problem ones.
As Howard says, it's physics. I don't understand how this problem can happen, but...
Gary

Stefan Robertson · From: Hertfordshire, UK

1. Definitely Stretch your strings. Use a tuner.
2. Don't use too Heavy a gauge or too light.
3. Use a good brand.

I use http://www.thomann.de/gb/pyramid_slider_set_8.htm

Stefan Robertson · From: Hertfordshire, UK

Lap steels usually don't have intonation problems. Cause they have a solid body usually one massive plank of wood. Not a separate neck like a guitar. Also because we don't fret the note there should be no problem as long as the tension between the nut and bridge is sufficient.

Finally If it is slightly out of whack maybe whoever marked the frets did it slightly out. Could be a mistake so your notes at the 12th fret don't sit exactly at the twelfth because the fret markers are off.

Different scale lengths mean different markers in between the nut and bridge.

Mike Neer · From: NJ

Is it possible that the difference in string height at the nut is causing the bar to make contact with the string in question at a different point along the bar, assuming you don't use a flat bar?

It is not something you should be dealing with if the guitar's nut is set up properly for the gauge you are using.
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Rob Jackson · From: Cambridge, UK

On the offending string(s), if you pluck the octave harmonic with say your fingernail, is it right above the 12th fret marker?

Gary Mortensen · From: Elgin, TX

OK, I've switched to another lap steel and find I'm having the same problem, to a slightly lesser degree. They're both tuned A6 - I tune the two E strings (first and fifth) to be a perfect octave apart and, when I bar at the fifth fret, I already have to slant a bit to get them in tune. I remember having the same problem with my Remington double neck some months ago, and I was able to pretty well solve the problem by slightly angling the bridge so that the scale length was slightly shorter at the eighth string than at the first.
I've wondered why steel guitars (and Dobros) have nuts and bridges that are parallel, when "regular" guitars have the bridge saddle placed at a slight angle. In any case, the compensation that worked for me on the Remington is the opposite of the angle on a flattop guitar saddle.
I just tried the octave harmonic as Rob suggested, and it does seem that the fifth string harmonic is strongest slightly closer to the bridge than over the twelfth fret, if that makes sense. This is consistent with the slant I apply to the bar to bring the string into tune with the first string.
My Dobros have never had this problem except once: I had bought a bunch of bulk strings in my preferred gauges either the third or fourth string went noticeably flat up the neck. The others were fine. I quit using those strings and the problem went away.
Anyway, thanks for all the ideas, I'll keep working at it. I've ordered some strings of a different brand to replace my wound strings.
Gary

Sid Hudson · From: Virginia, USA

If nothing has changed on your horn.....It's your strings Bro.

Putting more old ones won't cure the ailment.

Gary Meixner · From: New York, USA

Gary,

When you have a chance go to John Ely's website: www.hawaiiansteel.com, he has some information there that might be of help to you.

Basically the tuning system used in western music for the past several hundred years has compromises built into it to allow for a wide variety of instruments to play in all 12 keys and still sound sort of in tune. It has to do with how sound is generated and how the human ear perceives the different pitches. You could also look up subjects such as: just tuning, stretched tuning, etc.

Some instruments are more problematic than others and the steel guitar has it's problems.

John outlines several strategies to address this issue, including flatting some strings and sharping others. He has a chart with the values for each string in a variety of tunings. This doesn't necessarily solve the problem but offers another compromise that might work for you.

I have also found using different gauges or switching between wound and plain strings on the problematic middle strings can help, but each guitar seems to be different.

Good luck,

Gary Meixner

Gary Mortensen · From: Elgin, TX

I just replaced the most out of tune of my strings (an .034) with a GHS .036 I found in my box o' strings. It plays in tune just fine, so I'm thinking the strings themselves are the problem.
Gary

Mike Neer · From: NJ

That's good news. I just reread your initial post and saw it was a Georgeboards guitar. George is very meticulous in his work, so the string issue is most definitely the culprit.

Sid, I'm going to try out some of your strings next time I change.
_________________
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Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Is it possible your unwound strings were too light guage?
Maybe the pressure it took to not make them buzz deflected them enough that they went sharp.

Eddie Rivers · From: Texas, USA

That shouldn't be happening.I tried a set of those SITs about 20 years ago and they didn't SIT at all.I've been using John Pearce strings for the last 10 years and once they're stretched in,haven't had any problems at all.

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