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Topic: What model could this Sho Bud doubleneck possibly be? |
Peter Knudsen
From:
Denmark
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Posted 22 Jan 2014 8:00 am |
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A friend wants to sell this doubleneck Sho Bud to me. It has the logo on the front but there is no model name.. Can you fellow steelers give me a clue just by looking at the photo. I play lapsteel and don't know much about pedal steel guitars but I know this steel has a square back and a rounded front which might give a clue about the date. I think the serial no. is 1853 or 1856. It has 8 pedals and 6 knee levers - the levers are straight and not the beautiful rounded ones I have seen on many Sho Buds. Please check the photo of the volume pedal - maybe it can help solving the puzzle.. Thanks guys - I really look foreward to hear what you can come up with. With steelin' regards, Peter.
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1953 Rickenbacker SW8
1953 Stringmaster Deluxe 8
1954 Fender Champ Lap Steel Emmons 8 P/P pedal steel Magnatone Varsity Deluxe amp |
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CrowBear Schmitt
From:
Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France
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Posted 22 Jan 2014 8:12 am
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Some under the hood pics would help determine the model & age Peter
the tuning window too
it could be a Professional or a Pro II |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 22 Jan 2014 8:23 am
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Looks like a late 60s SB "crossover" from the changer. Post under pedal steel. These are, btw, some serious headaches to set up and weigh a ton. They are "purdy" though.
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Brad Bechtel
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 22 Jan 2014 11:13 am
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Moved to Pedal Steel from Steel Without Pedals.
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Brad’s Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars |
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Jesse Varichak
From:
Spokane
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Posted 22 Jan 2014 1:41 pm
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| Looks like a double version of mine, color and all. Mine's a Pro 1. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 22 Jan 2014 1:58 pm
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obviously not a crossover so that post was a waste of negativity.
pro ll before they went to the plainer keyhead and square front, but with newer undercarriage with straight knees.
around $1500 + or -
volume pedal makes no difference. |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 22 Jan 2014 7:51 pm
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Sho-Bud made anything and everything...including a few with one-off styles of changers. That's what this looks like to me. Could be a Professional, or a first-gen ProII with custom changers.
I seem to remember hearing about a couple gtrs like this one awhile back. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 22 Jan 2014 9:52 pm
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| The serial number dates it to January 1971, which would make it most likely a Model 6143 - "The Professional" - which came stock with 8+2 and a rack-and-barrel mechanism. Additional levers may have been added since, explaining the missing teardrop shape. A photo of the changer end and undercarriage would be appropriate... |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 23 Jan 2014 1:46 am
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The necks with screw heads showing are typically earlier models - my early Pro II ('73) has them, my Pro I Custom ('75) does not. Round-fronts are all either Baldwins, Professional or early Pro II. Baldwins did not have covers over the changer and pickup - they passed through openings in the wood neck so it's probably not a Baldwin. But those changers, without any spacers built into the axle support/cover, and what looks like square ends instead of the more rounded Sho-Bud ones, and the block in back. I've never seen anything like that on a Sho-Bud. I'm betting it has been changed to another brand of changer, and probably lots of changes under the hood as well. If done right, it could be interesting. Probably was originally rack and barrel, and got a transplant.
I would not consider it without playing it (and if you don't play pedals, get someone who does to go with you. It could be a really cool guitar, with the look of a Sho-Bud, but a more modern mechanical setup than rack and barrels. Or it could be a Frankensteel. Got to play it with someone who knows to find out which.
Those are my thoughts/guesses, anyway.
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Peter Knudsen
From:
Denmark
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 9:05 am
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Thanks for all your info guys! Here is some more photos that hopefully could judge if this is a go or a no go..
See? No model name... You saw this before?
A shot of the belly of the beast. Judging from all the the holes it has definitely been altered..
It IS a Sho Bud! Heh heh..
Serial No. 1853 What does 1 - A - 3 indicate?
Can't wait to hear what you have to say. Buy or fly?
Price is around $1700
_________________
1953 Rickenbacker SW8
1953 Stringmaster Deluxe 8
1954 Fender Champ Lap Steel Emmons 8 P/P pedal steel Magnatone Varsity Deluxe amp |
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Peter Knudsen
From:
Denmark
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 9:08 am
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I forgot to mention that the pedals a the bigger square ones and not the narrow slim ones. When did they change that?
_________________
1953 Rickenbacker SW8
1953 Stringmaster Deluxe 8
1954 Fender Champ Lap Steel Emmons 8 P/P pedal steel Magnatone Varsity Deluxe amp |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 9:36 am
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That is a totally rebuilt underside. Fessenden bell cranks. I'm not familiar enough with Super Pro hardware to know if there's anything Sho-Bud underneath there.
So what you have here is very un-original. That could be good or bad, functionality-wise. But it means that it needs serious scrutiny. It has been thru the wringer. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 9:44 am
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I just read some of your posts a little more closely. With the amount of cobbling this has seen, no way would I consider it worth $1700.
If it plays well, I might offer....$1200? That could be a great deal for you, if it does play well. But they just can't ask for a whole lot of $$ without spending a whole lot more effort to fill the holes and make this look more like a professional job all around. |
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Peter Knudsen
From:
Denmark
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 11:56 am
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 Dang Jon - so the verdict is Frankensteel I guess..
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1953 Rickenbacker SW8
1953 Stringmaster Deluxe 8
1954 Fender Champ Lap Steel Emmons 8 P/P pedal steel Magnatone Varsity Deluxe amp |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 12:16 pm
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Yes indeed Peter.
There are differing opinions on where the Sho-Bud tone comes from. I have no opinion (because I have no idea). But a case can be made for improving the undercarriage of a Sho-Bud. The late Duane Marrs did this with old Buds. Jeff Surratt of Marrs now makes the Show Pro. But I can't see is whether it is done well here. A nice mechanism in a very pretty old Professional or Pro II body---this could be nice. Nothing less than playing it and inspecting it closely can provide the necessary evaluation.
I can't tell--what is the changer? Double/Double? |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 2:45 pm
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Yeah! I got one right! Haha! That is exactly what I expected to see underneath. And my conclusions still remain - could be a brilliant update, could be a franken-steel. You need someone who plays steel to sit down at it and play it. The holes underneath might matter from an aesthetic perspective, but not anything more. I've seen many old Sho-Buds with extraneous holes on the underside.
If you can't get a steeler to go with you, try playing it yourself. Pedals need to be smooth and the pitch needs to go smoothly up or down. Once tuned up, they need to hit the same pitch each time, obviously. As Jon said, we need pics of the changer itself to know more. The window in the end - how many holes in a vertical line are there in each metal tab. Jon's guess (double/double) would be 2 holes each. If that is an updated changer, as I guessed, then 3/2 or 3/3 is more likely. If it is a Fessenden changer that someone has installed, then that could be a sweet guitar. Look carefully at how that changer was installed - does it look like it is well attached to the body in a manner that does not allow for flex? Any flex will make keeping it tuned impossible.
As for value, well, that can be really tough - but a guitar with all the beauty and charisma of a vintage round-front Professional (it is either a Professional or early Pro II body) yet with 8x6 and a modern undercarriage? I'd easily go $1500 for it (it looks a little dinged up).
On the other hand, if it is some no-name changer, or poorly installed, all bets are off! And I was wrong about it not looking like any Sho-Bud changers - the fingertip changer had a square end support for the axle with the axle ends visible. If so, then I'd give the whole thing a pass.
The missing decal probably means it was refinished - make sure that was done ok, not just shellac or varnish slopped on.
So, for more info we need to see pics of the changer from all sides, including one of the window where the plastic tuning nuts are (looks like it uses those), and underneath, looking up inside the changer if possible to see the fingers.
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 4:59 pm
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| i think douglas is right. it pretty much hinges on the changer. could be a real good steel. everything else seems to be done solidly. |
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Gene Haugh
From:
Arkansas, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2014 12:54 pm
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Peter;
This guitar is a Sho~Bud 6143! It was built 1/14/1972. Built by L.T. and checked by P.B. or D.B.
Don't know who the initials were. Card is not clear. Shipped to Gretsch on 2/2/72 in Elmhurst Ill. Sorry that is all I have.
Hope this helps
Gene Haugh |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 26 Jan 2014 3:51 pm
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Gene,
Nice to see you back on the forum, with the Sho-Bud info!
Doug
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Peter Knudsen
From:
Denmark
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Posted 27 Jan 2014 12:03 pm
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Here is some photos of the "changer".
C6 neck
E9 neck
It looks pretty coroded and rusty, could that affect the mechanisms and the playability?
Does these pictures tell if the changer and mechanisms is of a good quality?
_________________
1953 Rickenbacker SW8
1953 Stringmaster Deluxe 8
1954 Fender Champ Lap Steel Emmons 8 P/P pedal steel Magnatone Varsity Deluxe amp |
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Peter Knudsen
From:
Denmark
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Posted 27 Jan 2014 12:33 pm
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Gene are you sure that it is a 6143? I read somewhere that the 6143 only has 2 knee levers and this one has 6!
_________________
1953 Rickenbacker SW8
1953 Stringmaster Deluxe 8
1954 Fender Champ Lap Steel Emmons 8 P/P pedal steel Magnatone Varsity Deluxe amp |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 27 Jan 2014 12:41 pm
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triple raise, triple lower changer...good. if someone said the other parts are fessenden then the changer may also be.
take an air hose and some spray lube to everything, wipe it down and that could be a super steel.
someone will suggest taking it all the way apart but i wouldn't. and if you get it cheap, don't waste your profit margin on sending it to a rebuilder.
just clean it up and play it. it's really cool.
maybe better than a sho-bud! |
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Richard Smelker
From:
Winters.Texas, USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2014 12:50 pm
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My 6143 (Professional) was built in Oct 1972 - it has 4 knee levers. The stock model was supposed to have 2 knees.
I think mine was converted along with a newer rod mechanism - I think its Pro I or Pro II
For what it's worth, mine is in really clean shape with a newer hard case and I paid $1600 for it in 2013 from a person on the forum
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Richard Smelker
assorted 6 & 12 string guitars, a Pedalmaster D10 8+5 to play on, a Roland Cube 80Xl, a Peavey 130, Digitech digital Delay, distortion pedal, Melotron pedal, Keyboards and a MOYO pedal.
A new DAW system that I'm using to create a Christian music CD of original songs. Ordained Minister, Riding for the Brand of Jesus Christ. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 27 Jan 2014 12:52 pm
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peter..you're not grasping the concept. what gene said only pertains to the stock sho-bud that left the factory. that was old history. this steel has had extensive modification to it since then.
smelker..you're no help either. this steel has been modified with 'non sho-bud' parts. it could be a very good steel.
Last edited by chris ivey on 27 Jan 2014 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 27 Jan 2014 12:58 pm
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| Peter Knudsen wrote: |
| Gene are you sure that it is a 6143? I read somewhere that the 6143 only has 2 knee levers and this one has 6! |
Remember that this one has been gutted and entirely rebuilt mechanically, changer and everything underneath. Gene was saying that the serial number indicates it was a 6143. |
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