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Topic: preamp |
Chuck Morel
From:
Pottersville, New York
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 6:17 am |
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Can anyone please shed some light on the benefit of a preamp. Is an effex processor considered a preamp?
Thanks, Chuck |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 7:00 am Pre amp ?
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Hi Chuck,
With today's equipment, there's not much need to pre-amplify your signal. Getting a loud signal is not a challenge, but getting good tone is. Proper use of some devices, such as The Freeloader, Matchbox or Li'l Izzy might open the door and unlock the pleasing sound that is already in most guitars and just waiting to get out.
Sincerely,
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024 |
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Chuck Morel
From:
Pottersville, New York
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 7:41 am Preamp.
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| Thanks for replying Craig, The only effex I use in the old Lexicon MPX-100. I'm not finding that it delivers a sharp punch that Im looking for. The best way I can discribe it is my sound is old and dull. That is why I was asking about the preamp. Any suggestions would be appreaciated. Chuck M |
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john widgren
From:
Wilton CT
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 8:13 am preamp
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PM sent
_________________
Steel Guitar Services:
Live performance and recording. Instruments, repairs and lessons. Fresh bait/discount sushi.
(203) 858-8498
widcj@hotmail.com |
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Stephen Cowell
From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 8:32 am Re: Preamp.
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| Chuck Morel wrote: |
| Thanks for replying Craig, The only effex I use in the old Lexicon MPX-100. I'm not finding that it delivers a sharp punch that Im looking for. The best way I can discribe it is my sound is old and dull. That is why I was asking about the preamp. Any suggestions would be appreaciated. Chuck M |
The strict definition of 'preamp' is something used to drive a power amp. Most effects have some kind of buffer amplifier in them... a 'preamp' has volume and tone controls and output large enough to drive something like a mixer board does.
Boxes like the Freeloader have a buffer amp along with an input impedance control... you get to choose the loading of your pickups to find the 'sweet spot'. This will tame shrill highs without using tone controls, which can color sound adversely.
Post your gear and signal chain info and perhaps we can help... is the Lexicon in a loop, or in front?
_________________
New FB Page: Lap Steel Licks And Stuff: https://www.facebook.com/groups/195394851800329 |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 8:37 am
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A pre-amp is not an effects unit.
Im my rack I use a pre-amp, an effects unit and then the amp.
The quality of the pre-amp really affects the tone and is a very important unit. |
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Craig Baker
From:
Eatonton, Georgia, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 9:49 am You have a PM
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Chuck,
Just sent you a PM.
Craig Baker 706-485-8792
cmbakerelectronics@gmail.com
C.M. Baker Electronics
P.O. Box 3965
Eatonton, GA 31024 |
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Ken Campbell
From:
Ferndale, Montana
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 9:55 am Search
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| Do a web search on the LeMay MK 1 and the Telonics. Good info about usage. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 1:33 pm
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I like the tone better of the MPX100 if you run the level so that your solos make the red light flicker. If you keep the input padded down, it sounds flabby. Although I hate squashing the tail, I put the Lexicon in front of the volume pedal to keep the level better. Put a buffer in front of the unit.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jimmy Gibson
From:
Cornwall, England
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 3:08 pm Pre Amp
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I use a Behringer Pre Amp Booster pedal works great for steel.
Jimmy. |
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Darrell Birtcher
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 5:51 pm
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I'm pretty sure that your Lexicon is a "line level device." It will sound it's best when used in an effects loop that is also line level. It's input impedance is not low impedance but it is not what would be called high impedance either. It's probably in the neighborhood of 10k-20k ohms. This will load down the guitar's pickup and make it sound very dull and lifeless.
If you put a buffer in front of it (Izzy, Freeloader, Black Box, Hilton, Matchbox, active booster or FX pedal; etc) it will fix the tone but probably still not drive it hard enough to keep things quiet. Most buffers don't (and shouldn't) have enough gain to boost things up to line level. That is the job of a preamp
This is why Lane found better results by running it as hard as he could right off the pickup, before the volume pedal. It's a compromise and his workaround was to drive it as hard as he could.
If you have a good preamp with an effects loop, run the Lexicon
fully wet and set the FX balance at the preamp to your taste. If your preamp doesn't have an effects loop, you'll have to put tje Lexicon after the preamp, before the power amp and adjust your effects balance at the Lexicon. Expect more noise this way.
Hope this helps. |
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Tommy Boswell
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 6:17 pm Re: Preamp.
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| Chuck Morel wrote: |
| The best way I can discribe it is my sound is old and dull. |
Chuck,
My sound was old and dull too. I tried different amps and effects before I learned they were not the problem. The three things that finally brightened up the sound were:
1. a buffer, like the L'il Izzy
2. premium cables, like George-Ls
3. a single coil pickup
All three made a difference, but the L'il Izzy was the biggest help. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 6:33 pm
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Darrell, the MPX100 is alone (or nearly so) in the Lexicon line as an instrument-level device (although you can pad it down to line).
Also, I've found the reverb sounds best (and searching the forum found several others in agreement) NOT fully wet, but with the "blend" knob (or whatever it's called; I'm 800 miles from home) set no more than about 11 o'clock max.
PS: I'm no Craig Baker (or Tim Marcus or Brad Sarno), but I bet the 24 dB gain of the old Izzy Plus would bring a guitar up to line level.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Darrell Birtcher
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Posted 25 Jan 2014 7:35 pm
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That's good info about the Lexicon Lane. Thanks.
I also didn't know the Izzy had any gain. Typically,
a buffer is unity gain.
As for the effects loop, if it's a series loop the typical way to run it is with the balance controlled at the effect as you stated.
A parallel loop is typically run with the effect at full wet.
I should have been more specific.
Variations abound. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 26 Jan 2014 1:11 am
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Unless a parallel loop has a blend control (I didn't think they DID that), I don't think it'd sound as good.
They seem to sound best blended, and usually not even half wet (and on amp reverbs, isn't the knob a blend control?)
BTW, only the Izzy Plus had gain. I don't think he's reissued the Plus and the Lil' Izzy is unity. My Plus is amazingly hiss-free: when I run the volume pedal in a loop, my favorite overdrive is to dime the plus and saturate the input. I need to send my 500 to Mississippi: its VP loop doesn't work right.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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John Limbach
From:
Billings, Montana, USA
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Posted 26 Jan 2014 7:42 am Re: Preamp.
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| Chuck Morel wrote: |
| The best way I can discribe it is my sound is old and dull. That is why I was asking about the preamp. Chuck M |
Chased that "dull" sound for a couple years, even with a Revelation preamp and MX-100 in the system.
Finally had a "revelation", actually a tip, and turned the volume and tone controls all the way open on my guitar. End of dull and muddy problem.
Next step was to dial in the tone on the preamp. Once that EQ is set, then I simply adjust the tone control on the guitar to suit the song or situation, leaving the guitar's volume still full open.
Who knew it was that simple. Now for the first time I'm a happy with my sound.
Wonder how others have approached this? All I know is that it worked for me. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 26 Jan 2014 8:25 am
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Chuck, what kind of rig are you running?
Guitar is less important than what amp, and how do you set the knobs? Can't believe I didn't ask earlier.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Chuck Morel
From:
Pottersville, New York
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Posted 26 Jan 2014 9:03 am Pre-amp
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| Hey,Lane, Im sometimes embarressed to mention what I play through as it's old but works well. Here's the run down: 1989 Sierra Crown D-10,Peavey KB-100 amp also early 80's with 15"BW speaker the Lexicon MPX-100 processor and lastly the Behringer Rack tuner. I'm currently waiting for my new Stage One volume pedal.Not to exciting but I love the Sierra. Thank you for your attention in helping to set me straight. Chuck M |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 26 Jan 2014 9:52 am
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Try the following procedure for setting the EQ knobs on the KB. First, set all 4 knobs at 12 o'clock.
Do some playing on the lower strings, lower frets, and run the bass up til it starts getting boomy or muddy, back it off a bit.
Now turn up the low mids and hear it adding warmth and body. Stop when you got enough (you may wanna pull the lows back now a bit).
The high mids? You're gonna want to roll them back a bit, since they tend to sound "honky".
Now play up high, turn the highs up til it gets shrill, back it off.
A buffer will DEFINITELY help, since you don't have a knob to pull up the extra highs(a presence knob).
Keyboard and bass amps usually sound good for steel if you have your own reverb.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 Jan 2014 2:36 pm
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Did things get better over the weekend?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Chuck Morel
From:
Pottersville, New York
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Posted 29 Jan 2014 5:24 am
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| Still working on it Lane. I need to purchase a buffer such as the Lil Izzy and I'm waiting for word on the new volume pedal from Doug Ernest @ Stage One. I would like to have all the pieces in place before the tweeking process. Believe me,I will never be without a spare volume pedal again. I will contact you when I have something to report. Thanks. Chuck |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 29 Jan 2014 6:36 am
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Some effects units have too low an input impedance for the case of plugging a PSG directly in so a preamp or buffer will beneficial in this case. Below about 470k ohms (470,000 ohms, the input impedance becomes another component that influences the frequency response of a PSG magnetic pickup.
This is not necessarily true with a guitar pickup be cause they are typically 1/3 to 1/2 the impedance of a PSG pickup. Or I should say they can tolerate a lower input impedance load.
Let's face it most effects units are designed for guitar not PSG.
Look at the specs of the effects unit. It should say what it is.
A volume pedal in front of a preamp presents an impedance in parallel with the input impedance of an amp or preamp so in affect increases the load on the pickup which can affect the tone. My 470k minimum input impedance listed above takes this into consideration so should be OK so long as the pot in the volume pedal is 500K or greater.
BTW Resistance and Impedance are the same thing at DC. Impedance refers to the resistance as a function of frequency whereas an ideal resistor doesn't change it's value with frequency.
Sorry for the Electrical Engineering lesson but it's one of the few things I know really well having had the career and also having manufactured PSG pickups at one time. I jump at the opportunity to be helpful on this forum as it has helped me on so many occasions. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 29 Jan 2014 2:16 pm
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Chuck, I dunno about you, but I think I'd try twisting knobs first; it's free (although I'd still get an Izzy. It does amazing things. Correction: it does one amazing thing. It only does one thing, and it's very good at it).
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Chuck Morel
From:
Pottersville, New York
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 5:32 am
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| Lane, thanks and I will do that. I'm living proof of that expression "you can't fix stupid". Just once I'd like to have an AH-HAAAH MOMENT instead of an AH-CRAP MOMENT. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 30 Jan 2014 9:38 am
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| Quote: |
| "you can't fix stupid" |
Ahh, but if it isn't broken we can fix that too... |
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