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Topic: Tempered C6 tuning for non-pedal - myth or fact? |
John Botofte
From:
Denmark
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Posted 11 Jan 2014 1:56 pm |
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I found an old note with following chart for a tempered tuning for standard non-pedal C6. It really made my harmonics better so I may want to use them more. What do folks think about this kind of thing?
E1=439 hz
c2=442,5 hz
A3=438,5 hz
G4=442 hz
E5=439 hz
C6=442,5 hz
Oh, and sorry if this has been mentioned a zillion times before.
Cheers
John
_________________
GFI SM10-SD 3x2 Pedal Steel,
Georgeboard 8-string, 6-string DL travel lap steel, Gretsch 6-string, Gretsch Jim Dandy Parlor Guitar, Peavey Nashville 112, Boss RV-5
Zoom R8
https://soundcloud.com/lapsteelin1965 |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 11 Jan 2014 3:06 pm
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That looks like the Newman settings, non-equal temperament for C6 tuning, also used in Peterson tuners. The roots are tuned slightly sharp, the 5ths a bit lower, the 3rds lower, and the 6th lowest of all!  I use the same relative tuning, but not sharp. For me it's roots 440 and the 3rd, 5th, and 6th flatted to the same degree as shown above (relative to 440).
It's important to remember that a lap steel player will intonate with the bar, by ear, as he plays. Especially when playing two string-two note harmonies. A tempered tuning is fine for playing perfect sounding chords (majors and 6ths) across a given fret, but when the player moves to a different fret to play notes of the same chord (a different voicing) the string that was once the 3rd of the chord may now be the root of the chord, and vice versa, or maybe the b7 of the chord, etc, so the player will naturally intonate those new positions by ear.
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 11 Jan 2014 5:28 pm
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I agree with what Doug says. I play a lot of Early Music on period instruments such as the cittern, and I find that, being used to playing in natural temperament, equal temperament sounds out to me. But steel guitarists set the temperament with their hands. Without frets, the steel guitar is not fixed in temperament, but if you play along with other instruments that are, such as the piano and organ, you have to play in equal temperament or you will be out of tune with them.
I don't know about you, but when I play steel I don't play that many open strings, so the exact pitch of the open strings, which I never play, has less significance than if I was playing bottleneck style which I rarely do. |
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Nate Hofer
From:
Overland Park, Kansas
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Posted 12 Jan 2014 7:30 am
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| Since the root Cs are sharped I'm guessing that tempered tuning chart is for pedal steel C6 to anticipate for cabinet drop when pedals are applied. Thoughts? |
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John Botofte
From:
Denmark
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Posted 12 Jan 2014 7:52 am
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Doug, are you saying that you use tempered tuning with your C6 non-pedal, but that it is not really necessary?
I feel it improves the harmonics and make for a sweeter sound, also with single note playing, but maybe I am imagining things.
John
_________________
GFI SM10-SD 3x2 Pedal Steel,
Georgeboard 8-string, 6-string DL travel lap steel, Gretsch 6-string, Gretsch Jim Dandy Parlor Guitar, Peavey Nashville 112, Boss RV-5
Zoom R8
https://soundcloud.com/lapsteelin1965 |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 12 Jan 2014 8:01 am
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Apparently, I don't take this tuning business seriously enough.  I tune by ear. I haven't owned a tuner since I left mine at a gig about 4 years ago.
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 12 Jan 2014 9:38 am
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| Quote: |
| Doug, are you saying that you use tempered tuning with your C6 non-pedal, but that it is not really necessary? |
It's only necessary (to my ear) when playing the full "straight bar" chords, for example G6 on fret 7, all four notes. Or G on fret 7, all three notes. If all the strings are tuned to 440, those chords will sound slightly out of tune to me. The 6th tone has to be flatted to sound right within the chord. Same thing with the 3rd, but not as much as the 6th.
Of course, as the player moves the bar up the fretboard playing different positions of the same chord (two string harmonies, slants, etc.) the temperament of the open strings is not relevant because the player will naturally intonate with his bar and his ear. In other words, the temperament of the open strings only matters when the player is playing full chords (three or more notes) with the bar straight. That's my take on it anyway.
A good player who tunes by ear, like Mike does, will probably flat certain strings naturally. Mike, if you tune your steel guitar so the open strings sound perfect to you, and then put a tuner on the guitar, I'll bet your 6th tone and 3rd will be slightly flat. I'm reminded of how Jeff Newman came up with his E9 settings 30+ years ago. Rumor has it that Lloyd Green was at Jeff's place one day playing one of Jeff's steel guitars to some tracks. After Lloyd left, Jeff put a tuner on the guitar and wrote down the settings!
| Quote: |
| Since the root Cs are sharped I'm guessing that tempered tuning chart is for pedal steel C6 to anticipate for cabinet drop when pedals are applied. Thoughts? |
Yes, that root=442.5 chart applies to pedal steel C6, I believe. For lap steel I tune the root to 440 and flat the other strings basically the same as that chart, relative to 440.
I read that Jeff came up with the slightly sharp tuning so the open strings would be in tune when the pedals are held down (resulting in cabinet drop). That was always an annoying problem with pedal steel, especially when playing open string chimes/harmonics with the pedals down... they were always flat. Tuning to 442 corrects that.
Peterson tuners have both the 440 and the 442.5 settings for pedal steel. Peterson now has two Lap Steel settings: C6 and A6. I don't have them in my Peterson tuner and I can't find the settings on line, but I'm sure they are the same relative settings as all the other steel guitar tunings they have. Same relationship for the intervals, the formula works on all tunings.
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25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 12 Jan 2014 10:30 am
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Musical nomenclature in confusing. The letters A through G were originally derived because in mediaeval times it was assumed that you would be playing in Amin or C, and those are the notes in those scales.
After Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier" the letters took on fixed significances, but that is not the natural way of things. For instance, the G in the key of C is not the same note as the G in the key of D. The lute had movable frets, made of tied gut, so that you could change their positions when you changed key. Early keyboard instruments had more *keys than modern instruments, to take account of the differences.
*I have to apostrophize this word "key" because I'm referring to the key that you hit with your finger, not the key that the music is in. |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 12 Jan 2014 5:11 pm
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Anyone interested in this subject should check out Rick Aiello's articles at this address:
http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/_sgg/m7_1.htm
Especially "Tuning via Just Intonation."
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