The Ultimate Steel Guitar?

Guest · Posted 9 Sep 2003 5:07 pm

(Disclaimer: The following is a dramatization for entertainment purposes only.)

It's fun to speculate about what would be the ultimate steel guitar. Here's my idea, for what it's worth, which isn't much.

My ideal steel guitar would be able to change copedants with no effort, support multiple copedants that could be switched instantly, and require no manual tuning for raises and lowers.

Here's how I would do it (if I were as rich as Bill Gates)

1) Each finger is connected to a servo actuator that controls both raising and lowering.

2) The actuators are contolled by a computer chip that receives electronic inputs from the pedals and knee levers, which have no mechanical function.

3) Copedants are entered into the steel guitar's memory via an LCD panel with buttons that allow the selection of the pitch of each string and the raise/lower. The memory can retain many copedants. The guitar will also have a USB computer interface to allow copedant management software to upload copedants to the guitar.

4) The guitar has a built in tuner that can detect the pitch of each string and display it on the LCD display. You tune the strings to their open pitches using standard keyhead tuners, as on a traditional pedal steel.

5) Once a copedant is entered, a button invokes the auto-tune mode. In this mode, the computer chip will engage each raise and lower in sequential order. You pluck the string and the computer compares the pitch from the internal tuner to the desired value from the copedant. Within a second, the computer chip will determine precisely how much of a raise or lower is required to get the exact change in pitch. The entire process of setting up a copedant and getting all the raises and lowers perfect will take a few minutes.

6) With this guitar, a copedant can have an unlimited number of raises or lowers, and the chip will automatically compensate for splits. Also, because the pedals and knees will have no real mechanical function, their resistance level can be set to the comfort of the player.

Well, that's about it. Of course, the whole thing is silly and I'd still rather play my Sho-Bud. In fact, one of the things I like most about steel guitars is the lack of technology involved -- just levers, cranks, pedals, and a lot of ingenuity and craftsmanship.

Now, I'm sure Bill Hankey can think of a few things to add to my ultimate steel. What do you say, Bill?

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Very well put Stephen,

Contrary to what some may think, entirely within the realm of possibility in the NOT too distant future.

Let me sight you a prime example. For eons the standard, tried and proven method for ignition systems on automobiles was the system created shortly after autos were invented.

That is; a coil, a capacitor, a set of points that would open and close by a 4, 6 or 8 sided cam on a shaft connected to the engines cam shaft and a distributor system that used a revolving rotor to send the "spark" to a given spark plug at the precise instant the piston was at top dead center on a given cylinder. This was at idle RPM. Then a "spark advance" system that would fire before the piston got to top dead center as the engine's RPM was increased.

And it worked OK, but from day one, it was fraught with problems:

1. Backfiring

2. Pinging

3. Sluggish engine performance

4. Spark plugs that would do good to last 15 thousand miles.

5. Distributor cables that had to be replaced in short order.

etc, etc, etc

But look at any modern automobile today.

1. No points

2. No capacitor

3. No rotor

4. No backfiring

5. No stalling while idling

6. No stalling while taking off from a stop light.

7. No sluggishness when cold.

8. No hard starting in cold weather.

9. Spark plugs that last 100K miles easily.

Etc, etc, etc.

And what caused this miraculous change?

Two things:

1. Engineers recognizing a problem

2. Engineers designing a better system

This scenario WILL happen on the PSG one day. Mark my words.

May Jesus bless those builders that will follow the above and bring to the player a computer controlled PSG that will be a dream as compared to what we use today.

carl

Guest · Posted 10 Sep 2003 2:59 am

Thanks for your thoughtful response Carl. I, too, think it is doable. My feeling is that technological improvement can be taken too far. I am no luddite and do not believe in opposing progress. But I also oppose "disimprovements" -- the use of technology for the sake of technology. My ideal steel guitar was meant half seriously and half in jest. As with many things, we have the know-how, do we have the know-why?

John McGann · From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.

The day will probably come (and may we all live to see it) that a great sounding steel will be developed with digitally controlled copedents- we'd still need the physical pedals and levers, but the raises and lowers could be assigned to any string, and there would be a nearly unlimited number of raises/pulls per string.

All we'll need is a mind like Vance Terry's to keep them all straight!

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

I have a quartz operated chronomatic watch, just like the Navy Blue Angels wear, which I like. I have a modern grandfather clock in the hallway, which I love.

The high-tech steel guitar will come. The older guitars will stay.

Rick

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I think you'll find hydraulic changes before long if they aren't being done now. micro master cylinders on each pedal with adjustable stops. The tubes would run to one side or the other, run up behind one leg and operate slave cyls. On takedown, the rack would be placed in the case with the tubes, braided SS covered with vinyl coiled up neatly and all inside the case.

After all this time, I'm still not convinced that 'cabinet drop' is something that does not happen on the heel axle.

Also possibly the lengths of the strings being harmonically set behind the headstock rollers, like Sho Buds.

Heel changers? It's possible slave setups could be setup there, but it would require massive hydraylic engineering due to the physics of hydraulics.

Hydraulics over mechanical splitters and changers will probably be the next innovation.

Body's and necks would be exact copies of the Sho Bud Pro series.

Then though you'd have a guy like me that would have one all stained with hyrdaulic oil, and knife handles for knee levers...

EJL

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Gentlepersons...

I design control systems and computer controlled (PC and PLC) machines for a living. All of the requisite actuators and accessories to create/build a totally automated "steel guitar" can be found in the current issues of Motion System Design magazine, Machine Design Magazine, and related mechanical design spec books. I work in both the digital and analog domains.

One doesn't even have to go that far. With the advent of digital signal processing the requisite signals could be generated artificially.

I've given it some thought a few times as I've laid head to pillow at night and have concluded the effort to be against all better judgement. The thought of automating Sir John Hughey or Buddy Emmons makes me sad.

I also do not play computer games, what a waste of good computing resources. Better to crack cyphers or run refineries.

However... some additional electromechanical goodies that would allow the switch from 6th string raise/lower to 7th and 9th string raise/lower (with the same KL) would be fun to create.

Anybody got any good CAD drawings to an Emmons S-10?

Just my $0.02

Emmons S-10, Dekley S-10, Nashville 400

Winnie Winston · From: Tawa, Wellington, NZ * R.I.P.

Sigh...
Had this discussion with Sneeky Pete over 20 years ago....
The whole thing has to do with getting servos that are small enough to fit under the guitar, and accurate enough for adjusting the movement.
All you need is a *single finger* (no fancy changer) held in the "middle" by the servo.
Once the guitar is in tune, and the values placed into the computer, all further tuning would be automatic-- just hit the string, and it would move to the right pitch.
Yes. You could have pre-set tunings, so all pedals and knee levers were infinitely variable.
All you would need is a good way of converting the pedal movement to gradual servo movement-- you want it to be responsive and not quickly direct!
Just sit down, turn it on, place it in "tune" mode, strum across the strings, and evrything moves into tune. Then select the copedent you want and away you go.
I want one.
I tried working on one about 20 years ago, but the stepper motors/servos were too big. The strings would have to be about 5/8" apart to accomodate it.
Is the technology there now?
Pete thought the biggest expense would be the design and bulding of the intergrated circuits needed.

JW

Jackie Anderson · From: Scarborough, ME

Winnie, what about some of the servos used in radio controlled models these days? There are some pretty torquey ones out there, for their size. They could be staggered down the length of the underbody and connected to the changer fingers with pull rods. Rather than spending money developing ICs, assuming that they are not now available off the shelf, the prototype, at least, could be controlled with a laptop PC. Ultimately a "single board computer" (SBC) fitting under the body should be able to handle the logic with power to spare.

However, I would still worry that latency (vs. speed picking) and lack of "tactile feedback" (i.e. "touch")(vs. slow, expressive playing) might be real issues.

As to tactile feedback, by way of analogy, having steered sailboats with geared, hydraulic and even servo linkages between helm and rudder, I have to say that the missing feedback that a simple, direct tiller provides is sorely missed.

I am no Luddite, either (although it irritates me that I can't adjust my car's idle speed or ignition timing with a screwdriver any more), but it just may be that the current "primitive" mechanical approach will remain the most "musical" for pedal steels.

[This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 11 September 2003 at 05:54 AM.]

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

Excuse me, but miniature servos and/or miniature hydraulics are not practical for the pedal steel guitar___interesting yes, but not practical. It's akin to installing power steering on a two-wheel bicycle. Or, installing servos on the control surfaces of a J-3 Piper Cub.

The ultimate pedal steel guitar will have all changes made with variable compound eccentric pulleys and aircraft control cables___yes, cables. The idea that cables cannot be used because they stretch is nonsense. The aerospace industry run 1/16" diameter cables 50 to 75 feet with precision control.

There is still too much hardware under the cabinet of the most modern pedal steel guitars.

Rick

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

While there are solenoids and/or servos and/or hydraulics and vacuum systems. etc that could do the job; and many have been tried, I believe in my heart, that the real answer is NOT mechanical at all.

Rather I believe it will fall into the same realm as many things today; and that is computer controlled and driven.

Yes, we will need "pedals and knee levers" since that is an extension of our human appendages, but that is where the similarity ends.

"Feel" is subjective, and is as varied as there are players; in desires and what a given guitar does. But the one thing that has not changed or ever will (IMO) is the goal of a pedal steel guitar.

That is, when music calls for it, a player wishes to have a given string's fixed pitch changed to another given pitch. This is the objective of all PSG's regardless of age, make or model.

Since music is sound perception; and since sound perception can; and IS easily converted into and out of electronics; I believe the future will use THIS, as opposed to ever more sophisticated mechanical assemblies.

There will come a time when musical accessory equipment will be sooooo good that it can mimic exactly every nuance of sound perception anyone could desire.

From this I deduce that there will be NO pull rods, crossrods, springs, bellcranks, changers, etc underneath the ultimate Steel guitar of the future.

Instead, it will have a tiny tiny computer controlled brain that will change any string's vibration perception ON demand; to whatever a player wishes. And do it perfectly.

Perfect in the sense of what man can perceive as to feel, tone, level, timbre, attack, dynamically and other wise, etc.

Mark my words, it will come. If anyone doubts this, look around. A modern wrist watch is a perfect example. Compare it to a grandfather clock, and then ask yourself,

"what was the objective in each case?"

God richly bless you all,

carl

Guest · Posted 11 Sep 2003 7:50 am

Actually, Carl, you have a point. If the vibration of the string were digitized, it's pitch could then be modified using a DSP chip. This would require no mechanics at all. The computer chip would get inputs from the pedals/knees and then use the DSP to alter the digitized signal. Wow. That would be an incredible thing. It would be just a modification of what is already being done with the Variax guitar (see b0b for more on that).

I'm not sure I'd like it, but I'd sure like to see it.

Jackie Anderson · From: Scarborough, ME

Indeed, there's the question "could it be done?" (with sub-question "how?") and then there's the entirely separate question "should it be done?" (and the sub-question "why [not]?"). I expect that this thread will draw some more answers to each of those -- all perfectly legitimate, too. FWIW, my answers are respectively "yes (in various ways)" and "no (for various reasons)."

As for the "various reasons," I recall hearing that after they had been listening to Earl Scruggs playing you-know-what, some time in the early 1960s, someone asked Frank Proffitt ( http://users2.ev1.net/~smyth/linernotes/personel/ProffittFrank.htm ) "wouldn't you like to be able to play b@njo like that?" and Frank is supposed to have answered "yep -- and then not."

[This message was edited by Jack Anderson on 11 September 2003 at 09:00 AM.]

Rainer Hackstaette · From: Bohmte, Germany

I think we should be careful what we wish for - it just might come true.

The pedal steels of today and yesterday are purely mechanical machines that can be serviced by the player himself. All of the parts can be repaired or duplicated by a good machine shop, even if the guitar has been out of production for 20 years or more. Most of these guitars were "born in a garage" and, should they "die", could be "revived" just there.

Once you go down the electric/electronic way, servicing by the player is over. If such a guitar has a hardware or software malfunction, it's "back to the factory". What if there is no factory any more? Try getting replacement parts for a 20-year-old computer. Who re-programs a Pedal-Steel-Operating-System that was written in FORTRAN?

Peavey had to discontinue their Session 2000 amp, because the memory card slots were no longer produced. If you had those on your Emmons ...

If steels would go electronic we'd face the same problems that have plagued keyboarders for the last two decades. Newer, faster, better. Each new generation light years ahead of the previous - and incompatible to it. Try and get a Yamaha DX7 repaired - and good luck!

Would electronic steels do what we want them to do? Yes!
Would they sound great? You bet!
Would they be easy to operate? Well - can you program your video recorder?

These steels would play like a dream - until they break down. Then the nightmare starts ...

What I'd really like to see is a compliance to international measurement standards. Heck, I can't even get a simple replacement screw on this side of the Atlantic, because the original one is threaded in fractions of an inch!

Rainer

------------------
Remington D-10 8+7, Sierra Crown D-10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S-14 gearless 8+5, '76 Emmons D-10 8+4, Peavey Session 400 LTD

[This message was edited by Rainer Hackstaette on 11 September 2003 at 09:04 AM.]

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

Picture a double neck pedal steel guitar less the legs.

Picture a 19 cubic foot refrigerator laying on its side.

Picture the pedal steel guitar body laying in the middle of the refrigerator body's top surface.

Did anyone say this thing has to be portable?

Rick Collins · From: Claremont , CA USA

Carl, I cannot find anything that I can disagree with in your reasoning, in this thread.

All that technology has to offer for the instrument is the way to go,___if we still retain all of the unique sound of the instrument.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

Andy Alford · Posted 14 Sep 2003 9:03 am

The ultimate steel should have great tone,stay in tune,be well built like a GFI,Sho bud or a Zum.

Joerg Hennig · From: Bavaria, Germany

Electronic steel? I have my doubts about it. But a travel steel, one that I could easily take with me when I fly to the U.S., but that still has the tone, looks and feel of the old classics, while weighing at the most 30 pounds (in the case), that would be something. A compact D-10 somewhat resembling a SuperPro, with inlays and all. REAL wood body of course, some ultra light but great tone wood, and some kind of metals that eliminate weight while suitable for good tone. Real easy to set up and break down, with an equally compact and real light but solid flight case that can stand rough treatment. Ultra-compact folding seat could be attached to it. A steel that you can take anywhere, that´s a joy to carry around.
Next project, how to shrink the amp.

Joe H.

[This message was edited by Joe Henry on 15 September 2003 at 11:15 AM.]

Johan Jansen · From: Europe

I think there never will be a ultimate steel, and I love it the way it's now!With all the imperfections,search for the holy-grail: tone,tuning,bodydrop-problems, and the nice discussions on this forum!Please, let's keep it this way!
(But it would be a solution,if all pedalboards,legs and rods would fit on every brand,so we could lent,borrow or hire locally some when we have to travel by plane.

)
JJ

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

What you guys are trying to design is a still mechanical guitar with all related pitfals and with a lowd of electronics. I think that when you'll get to the point to have a small CPU running the whole bloody mechanical mess

, we could at once take it one step further and bypass ALL mechnical implications.
Get rid of the changer and tunig mechanisms and go to "fake" (fixeed factory non-ecencial pitch) strings that will really never break again (guaranteed or we'll ship you a new guitar FREE!). A magnetic sensor system underneath the fret board (to locat current bar placement) and little sensors on each string that will notice a particular string has been plucked.
A tone bank with 100 steel guitar sounds from Anderson over Byrd, Day, Emmons... to West (you get the idea) and a special 10 custom (your nasty) sounds AND plus the sounds of an other 100 "instuments" like horn sections, strings, and wabbly organs... what ever! You'll get it, and if it isn't in it we'll sell it to you in future chips.
Tuning-pedal setups with again over 999 presets of all our heroes and some of yours (even if it's the same!).
Very easy to play. Butter soft pedals and knee levers (sensors are butter soft). All string of same tension and feel and at level high (just for Carl).
Very light and made of materials easy to recycle, because you will soon want the newer one that has the 1000 voices 12999 tunings and pedal setups and the new MDBP (Magneto Drag your Bar in Place) and LSTPTRS (Lightup String to Pick The Right Strings) Learning technology, allowing you to play 199 songs and 999 well overplaid licks easy.

You may think I'm stupid (well, thank you very much

) or I'm only joking (I actually might be too), but I really belive that, if you really plan to put that amount of electronic control into a new design, you might as well go the whole way... serious! And building 100-thousand units a year it will also be much cheaper

.

... J-D.

Andy Greatrix · From: Edmonton Alberta

Are you talking about the Bill Gates
MSN super-classic 12 string?
If Bill Gates buys MSA,
Would it be renamed MSG?
No offence Reese.(grin)

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

The computer/servo controlled PSG is not all that far off. Check out "Transperformance" self tuning guitars at:
http://www.selftuning.com/

A few months ago while visiting my mom in Denver, I was invited to go to a party/jam at Neil Skinn's house in Ft. Collins by an old high school chum. The jam was pretty chaotic

, but when I got to check out Neil's "Transperformance" workshop, I was totally blown away!!! His automatic tuning system for regular guitar(i.e. alternate tunings and tuning "temperaments" like the Feiten system etc.) REALLY worked! Dead on the money! My mind immediately was filled with visions of possible pedal & lap steel applications. Neil was interested in that too, but it all boils down to R&D money for now he said.

The system is very fast, but admittedly there was just a little too much latency for PSG as we know it right now. But after seeing this with my own eyes (& ears), I'm now sure that it's just a matter of time till the bugs are worked out.

Like I've said on the Forum before, I think the weight issue is really gonna criple the worldwide visability of the PSG as far the airlines are concerned. I think ultimately something like this might be the only way to afford doing world tours with a PSG. Unless of course you're in the major leagues.

Guest · Posted 23 Sep 2003 12:52 pm

Rick, that's the wildest thing I've ever seen. And eerily similar to the design I had in mind. However, I started this thread as a lark, and it's still that to me. I'm happy with my sho bud and there are plenty of great steels being made today without electronic wizardry. Still, the idea is intriqueing, no?

Alan Pagliere · From: Ann Arbor, MI, USA

I figured about 15 years ago that a completely digital steel, like what Stephen O'Brien mentions in his post, should be possible. Pedals and levers could have some mechanism so that there is some kinesthetic feedback to engaging them, but the pitch changes would be completely digitally controlled. No changers, no rods (perhaps not even pedal rods, just a pedal that actuates the digital "pitch compensator"). Weird. Who knows how it would sound? But seems doable.

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