Tuning Problems - No solutions - Period!!

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

We're all caught up in the mechanical quandary. It's high time to face the facts. There never has been a steel guitar that was ever perfectly tuned. For that matter, it should be quite obvious that if you're talking about something in the nature of exactness, I am convinced, it just isn't so.
The problem increases many times over, with the additional implementation of pedals and knee levers. If mechanical influences are not enough to disrupt the flimsy theories of perfect tunings, temperature changes will without question defeat one and all.

Bill H.

[This message was edited by Bill Hankey on 15 September 2003 at 08:08 AM.]

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Can the steel be tuned perfectly? No.

Can the steel be played so it sounds like it's in perfect tune? Yes.

The difficulty is learning to do so. It takes a good ear, and lots of time.

Bob Carlson · From: Surprise AZ.

If you have any background with a standard guitar and adjusting intonation you will understand why this is true.

Bob

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

What do you mean by "perfectly tuned", Bill?

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Donny H.,

Your statement is very true Donny. However it will not eradicate the offerings made by those who are caught up with the same irreversible tuning problems of every last steel guitarist on the planet. Pitch checks by the human ear can be unreliable, to say the least. Where do we go from here, to find the solution? Electronic detection? No, because there are simply too many variables connected with the mastery of perfect pitch.

Bill H.

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

"Perfect pitch" does not mean "sounds good". You may like the sound of an instrument tuned one way, and I another. The whole tuning thing is subjective, and conditional upon how the tuning will be used = chordal, single note, fifths harmony, etc..

The math & science may describe methods and concepts, it does nothing for the sound.

Tune according to the musical situation.

May Ahura-Mazda light your way!

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Bobbe Lee,

I mean there is no shortage of complaints made, by those whose expertise goes far beyond the mediocre steel guitarist. Why do they stress the disadvantages encountered in attempting to be exactly in tune? Simply because the nature of spring steel will not allow them to do so. The guitar string's tendency to be "fickle" provides the staging area for ensuing problems, which are considerable in number.

Bill H.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

I must agree with Donny Hinson completely.

Also, to say that math and science does nothing for the sound is to suggest (in my mind) that math does nothing for anything; since in every facet of this world, human's dominate it. And if human frailties and perception (which governs everything we know and do, particulary in respect to sound perception) cannot rely on math and science, then we have made a horrible mistake in teaching millions upon millions math and science.

In addition, a guitar CAN be tuned "perfect" IF, at least two people agree what "perfect" means in a given scenario. Here is an example: If two or more people agree that a guitar is in perfect tune, IF it is tuned straight ET, then ANY guitar which is tuned to straight ET.....IS in "perfect" tune to those people.

carl

Herb Steiner · From: Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064

Just a point or two of philosophical conjecture, to which I don't really have an answer:

If a "problem" has no solution, is it in fact a "problem?" Or is it merely a phenomenon, a situation that simply exists in nature?

IOW, does the use of the term "problem" imply that there must be a "solution?"

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

What do you mean by "perfectly tuned", Bill?

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Bobby Lee,

As in the game of chess, one has to think ahead. Or, take for example a game of pool, where your challenger will make his/her best shot, knowing well a miss could occur. That is why a serious player of any game of wit, would not intentionally become a sitting duck, whereby his/her plans to prove a point could be easily dismantled or ridiculed. I had mentioned to a class act steel guitarist years ago, that nothing has been recorded to date by stringed instruments, that was done so in perfect pitch. It is one of the best kept secrets, that comes to mind. It is not unlike human nature to turn a deaf ear on some of life's most perplexing problems.
We're all caught in this web, or net of insufficient resolve, of constantly, or at a close intervals
retuning to approximately; perfect pitch. My strongest point is made by declaring that a simple test performed on any steel guitar, would indeed exemplify, and give credence to my statements.

Bill H.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Bill,
I have no clue how what you just said explains what you mean by 'perfectly tuned', but I will offer my perspective:

When you can tune your 5th E9 string to B, relative to A440, then rub your finger lightly across the length of the string and the tuning changes, it is clear that getting absolute stability in tuning on a pedal steel is not possible.

That said, Donny has the idea. I'm gonna put my money on making it SOUND LIKE IT'S IN TUNE. As long as it pleases my ear -- regardless of whether I tune by ear, or use a tuner, or Tarot cards for that matter, I'm satisfied with it.

I also agree with Herb. It is much more of a phenomenon than a problem. It only becomes a real issue if you can't manage it or deal with it.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 15 September 2003 at 11:34 AM.]

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Aha Mr. Dixon, ..I perceive that you may indulge in disagreeing disagreably!

I supose that as long as we are willing to define something other than perfect as perfect then within the minds of the imperfect ones doing the defining it will be so..."reality is as you perceive it"; Is that not perfectly clear? "Be ye perfect" etc..

And what pray tell does "math & science" do other than describe? These descriptions lead to communication and discussion, which in turn lead to thinking about, thence to proposing experiments, which leads to advanced structures/materials/techniques/tunings that previous generations previously taught are loath to accept, perhaps because of their imperfections and "frailties". The Structures/materials/techniques/tunings, coupled with the environment in which they are employed give rise to the sound, ..not the math & science. The interpretation of the sound may or may not be the same for those stimulated by it even assuming that they might actually be hearing the same thing (hearing vs age, loudness, etc.).

Math & science folk don't agree with each other, but they do use these things as tools. Math & science do not stand still, ..what is considered as real and absolute in those fields today will be changed tomorrow, as has happened ever since when. What suggestions emerge in your mind
are yours to deal with, ..they probably are imperfect in any case (a common human situation).

So lets use math & science (if we don't it will exist in vain) to improve our understanding of the PSG. This cannot be done efficiently untill those involved learn a bit of the language and agree upon what is meant by the various terms. Not all pickers should even give a .... but perhaps some should, ..at least the music part.

We have arrived at the point where we have imperfect people discussing imperfect concepts using randomly defined terms quantified by arbitrarily truncated values, pleading to the authority of imperfectly communicated history (who tuned how and why), and maybe even coming to perfectly reasonable conclusions (temporary conclusions?), .."these too shall pass".

Should we tune it, play it, or discuss it? Yes! Worship it? No! Enjoy the verbal wrestling match? You betcha!

May Ahura-Mazda guide your bar.

[This message was edited by ed packard on 15 September 2003 at 07:19 PM.]

David Doggett · Posted 15 Sep 2003 11:49 am

Okay, I can't resist. Just because ET is rigorously defined mathematically does not mean it is perfect in any sense. It is intentionally designed to be as equally imperfect as possible when playing in all keys. Just because JI is what our human ears like, does not mean JI is imperfect. This is backwards. What our ears like is perfect, and was before anyone knew the numbers to describe all of this. Competent singers, fretless instruments and horns all play perfect JI, not imperfect ET. It turns out that there is a reason our ears like JI, and it is because of the perfect numbers that JI is naturally based on and that we discovered long after we knew we liked the sound. Those are the small whole number fractions that divide the fundamental pitch into the other 8 notes of the scale.

The history of keyboards makes this clear. Keyboard instruments were originally tuned JI to a single key. They were perfect for that key in a way that ET can never be. They were perfect to our ears because they matched the perfect whole number fractions that divided up the scale for that key. A few other keys with some of the same chords worked okay, but some of the 12 possible keys sounded really bad. This was because the small whole numbered fractions do not place the notes of the scale evenly spaced between the octaves. When you shift to play the scale starting on something other than the root note the instrument is tuned to, the intervals don't automatically work out right for the new key.

To solve this problem they invented the equal tempered tuning. This tuning ignored the small whole number fractions of the fundamental, and simply divided the scale evenly into 12 chromatic intervals. This is imperfect, and so no longer plays any key in perfect tune. But it is a compromise that allows all keys to be played in tolerably and equally imperfect tune. This was Bach's well-tempered clavier.

The same can be done on a pedal steel guitar. You can take a chromatic tuner and tune every string, pedal and knee perfectly to imperfect ET. There is no mystery to this. If your guitar wont do this, there is something wrong mechanically and it needs to be fixed - or sell it and buy one designed better. Any pedal steel should be capable of having every single string and stop tuned perfectly to an ET tuner. Then it can be played tolerably imperfectly in every key, just like a piano.

But it wont sound perfect to our ears, which are the definers of perfection, because it doesn't play the perfect whole number fraction divisions of the fundamental in any key. The pedal steel has a better compromise than a piano. Because the bar acts as an infinite capo, if we tune to perfect JI at any fret, then the bar takes that to any other fret and maintains JI (except for some minor perturbations caused by bar pressure acting diffently at different parts of the neck). So as long as you maintain the same chord inversion you tuned to with perfect JI, you can keep perfect JI in all keys, like voices, orchestral strings and horns, and unlike keyboards and fretted instruments.

But we don't play the same inversion always. We hit the pedals or knees, or play another chord using the auxillary strings, and change the inversion, so that now the string that was playing the 3rd of the chord is playing the tonic or 5th. This creates the same problem the JI tuned keyboard had. The intervals between the strings are now different than the strings were tuned to. For a small number of changes, we can fix this by tuning the pedal and knee stops. But as we add more strings, pedals and knees that are used for different intervals in different chords, we eventually run out of stops to change, without messing up another chord we already have tuned. Compensators can stretch things a good bit further. With enough compensators, it might be possible to tune the whole instrument JI for a whole bunch of chords, but probably never for all chords. But we can probably fix this by splitting the difference here and there and have something much closer to the perfection of JI for all chords in all keys than ET provides.

But this is all just speaking of the instrument playing in tune with itself. If you then want to play with keyboards and fretted instruments that are tuned completely ET, there is a potential problem. The bar and your ears will help strike some acceptable compromise with these instruments, the same way vocalists, fretless strings and horn players do. Surprisingly that may work better than actually trying to tune the whole pedal steel ET.

Jim Cohen said in a recent post that in recording with an ET piano, they were surprised to discover that his pedal steel sounded better tuned JI than straight ET. This may be because of the subjective psychological component of what we are used to and expect. We expect a piano to have that ET sound. But the pedal steel plays harmony with itself like twin fiddles, or like vocalists singing close harmony. We are accustomed to hearing that type of harmony done JI. So even if the piano is playing ET, our ears want to hear the pedal steel harmonizing with itself with JI.

Okay, I feel better now. I just wanted to try to get rid of the idea that ET is perfect and JI is not. This is counter to the musical theory and mathematics that explain harmony. Within any given key, JI is harmonically perfect, and ET is not. Only when you switch keys on a fixed pitch instrument does JI become imperfect, and then ET is a little less imperfect. But ET can never be perfect in any key.

David Doggett · Posted 15 Sep 2003 12:13 pm

Guys, I didn't mean to sound preachy here. We're all just trying to get to the facts. Carl's two posts asking how people tune ET and JI are very commendable, and way above the tone of many past posts on JI and ET. He is getting people to tell exactly how they tune and what actually works for them. And that is where we will find the solutions to tuning problems.

Chris Schlotzhauer · From: Colleyville, Tx. USA

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There never has been a steel guitar that was ever perfectly tuned.
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And your point is.......

Bill Hankey · From: Pittsfield, MA, USA

Ed Packard,

Thanks for the outstanding flurry of intellect, that sent me reeling backwards a few steps. There is substantial clout in your reply, that is indicative of making the best use of the English language. I want to answer Carl D., and in doing so, I must be exceedingly mindful, that he is highly respected by his peers. I must not trifle with his great wisdom. Thanks again for the thought provoking words.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

I have no idea what you mean, Bill. Phrases like "perfectly tuned" and "perfect pitch" imply that some method of tuning or some specific pitch is "perfect".

A string is "in tune" if it sounds in tune when compared to a reference tone. One could even argue that only unison notes are in tune - otherwise the issue of temperament raises its ugly head.

Is equal temperament "perfectly tuned"? Is just intonation "perfectly tuned"? What about the infinite number of other temperament possibilities? That's why I asked the question "What do you mean by 'perfectly tuned', Bill?".

You can't make the statement that "There never has been a steel guitar that was ever perfectly tuned" without establishing what "perfectly tuned" means. I know that I have tuned my steel guitars perfectly to the temperament of my choice, many times, and to just intonation as well.

Once again, it seems that we disagree...

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9),
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6),
Roland Handsonic, Line 6 Variax

[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 15 September 2003 at 04:57 PM.]

Fred Einspruch · From: Alaska

OK Bill you are right, no steel guitar or other guitar can ever be perfectly in tune.

None the less, Tommy White sure sounds great on the Opry, at least when he is in the audio mix. How do you explain that????

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

I look at it this way. After I tune my steel to the desired increments on my tuner, using Jeff Mewman's older settings,I always tweek it a little bit, so it sounds good to my ears.Because of the different pulls and lowers on the strings, one or more strings are always a little out. The F lever is always a bear to tune exactly, and for anybody who plays an S-12 Universal, you have to tune the lower strings with the Eb lever engaged, which then may or may not be in tune with the rest of your strings. It's all relative with the way we, as steel players, hear the notes. I've seen many well known steel players retune between songs, and others just keep playing along ignoring any errant notes.Because, everyone hears music slightly different. Old age plays havoc with your hearing. As does abuse by loud machines, music, prescription drugs,gun fire, illness and many more maladies. So, in closing, I would like to say that, tune it as close to possible, then tune tune it for your own satisfaction.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

To my precious and dear friend Ed Packard,

What in the pluperfect halleluja did you say?

luv ya friend,

carl

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

You all might be interested in a great book called "Temperament", by Stuart Isacoff. (copyright 2001, Vintage Books, ISBN 0-375-70330-6)
It's a very readable history of tuning issues which I've found very informative. It talks about Pythagorus, Gallileo, Newton, Da Vinci, etc., and the evolution of their theories on Temperament and the universe. It had never occured to me that, at one point in time, there was no such thing as a Major Third interval. Hmmm.
When I read the subtitle (How music became a battleground for the great minds of Western civilization) I thought they were talking about you guys.

-John

ed packard · From: Show Low AZ

Bill H, ..not to fret, ..CD and I tend to fence occasionally, ..I love every hair on his cute little grey moustache. This was getting like the good old days before b0b started and then HID away the "off topic" category. I thought when I was deciding wether or not to post the above, that you might appreciate it a bit if I wrote it in Pittsfieldese. I learned the effusive verbosity technique and how to promulgate obfuscation in Mass schools (among others). You will find the Packard family in Cummington, Windsor, Plainfield, and Pittsfield.

Next let us see if anyone cares about the Pythagorean, mean tone, and Walter step tuning (tempering) methods and how they accomplish them. If they don't, then they may be missing out on what could be their "Ideal" (notice that I did not say perfect) tempered tuning.

b0b; lots of terms are used on the forum without being defined, ..that is one of the problems encountered herein.

"Thus spake Zarathurstra"

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

"Just because ET is rigorously defined mathematically does not mean it is perfect in any sense."

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Very respectfully David,

Believe it or not I believe that statement is 100% correct IMO! I believe that with all my heart.

However, the following statement is also just as correct.

"IF two or more people deem that ET is a perfect way to tune a musical instrument, THEN any instrument tuned to ET is a perfectly tuned instrument to those people."

I do not tune ET. I never have, and I never will because I cannot stand beats; except in certain chords like 7ths, 9ths, augmenteds and diminised chords. I tune as close to JI as I can; excluding the above.

But, in my heart and soul, I believe that JI is very imperfect; AND ET is as perfect as is possible to get; in the realm of what science and mathematics would call perfect. I believe this because it is the only tuning method that works in EVERY single key including every note without exception; and it works in total parallel with mathematics and fret alignment etc, etc.

I believe that JI is imperfect for many reasons, but the major reason I believe it is imperfect is the following actual experiences I have encountered.

If you check players guitars who say they tune JI, in MOST cases you will find their JI tuning will be all over the place. In other words some will have their 3rds at -15 cents. Some will have them at -10 cents. Some will be at -5 cents, and anywhere in between.

BUT when you check a player's guitar who tunes straight 440, in most cases, every string will be dead on straight up 440. Unless of course it has drifted from external factors.

That in my book is absolute. Since anyone tuning that way is using an absolute standard; where there is NO deviation from norm. And every note at ever fret (if the frets were installed correctly) is dead on.

That says to this dude, that ET is as perfect as anything can get in this world. Regardless of whether the human ear (THE most imperfect of all our senses) likes it or not.

May Jesus change one of our "paradises" in heaven; so that JI is a perfect way to tune; since there is NOTHING sweeter on a pedal steel guitar.

Again, with much sincere respect David,

carl

John Cox · From: Texas, USA

Mr. H

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