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Topic: U12: More levers or two footed pedalling |
Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 17 Dec 2013 10:03 am |
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I spent a lot of time condensing my copedent down to a 5x5 design on a double raise/double lower changer, and this copedent is easily played with one foot doing the pedal work.
Of course, the 'want/need more' bug bites and at the back of my mind, a commitment to two pedalled steeling with very limited volume pedal use (eg. Only with Nashville style) is one way to blow open the doors on what's possible with the U12.
The other way is to move up a level in complexity with 7kx6p and make the knees work very hard, but keep the volume pedal, and only use the two footed approach sparingly.
How many guys out there are wholly committed to a two foot pedalling technique? |
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 17 Dec 2013 1:02 pm
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I don't play a U12 but I use the 2 foot stomp on C6th quite a bit - same principles apply
_________________
14'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
08'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
94' Franklin Stereo D10 9+8
Telonics, Peterson, Steelers Choice, Benado, Lexicon, Red Dirt Cases. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Dec 2013 1:09 pm
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I've had occasion to use A, B and C on the E9th neck.
I try to minimize double-footing, that's why P5 sits on a lever on all my guitars.
I'd say that if your setup is limiting your vocabulary, then add a pedal or knee. Reece Anderson (yeah, I know...) or Russ Wever could probably show you how to get what you to add on a more limited guitar, but I can't think that hard and play at the same time.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 17 Dec 2013 8:14 pm
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Paddy: Thanks for your vote for two-stepping.
Lane: Yeah, I use them too...too much...? A+B is still the most beautiful sound ever...maybe just that precious one extra knee lever to get the E--D on a knee...Unfortunately, putting it anywhere but very near to RKR kind of disposes a lot of its usefulness to me, and it so likes being on a foot for the B6th work. Rock/hard place. Not a fan of redundancy either, especially with my limited mechanics.
Larry: thanks for the link. Well done on what you did with the P/P's...I note that you eventually "gave in" and went all out on a loaded modern machine...I gave up some changes you have on your P/P, and have some you don't...the inevitable process of personalization...You never indicated whether you stomp with both feet?
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 17 Dec 2013 8:58 pm; edited 7 times in total |
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mike nolan
From:
Forest Hills, NY USA
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Posted 17 Dec 2013 8:22 pm
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I'm up to 8 and 6 on my U-12. I still use 2 feet at times, mostly because I treat it as one big tuning and move from A+B stuff to 5+6 stuff with or without the Es lowered.
I totally camped out on Larry's site for a couple of weeks when I was sorting out my uni copedent and tuning strategy.... never said thanks. So thanks Larry! |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 17 Dec 2013 9:03 pm
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Not to stir the pot (hahaha) but there are days when I think pursuing an integrated "universal tuning" that takes approaches from two totally different tunings in different keys and trying to make them all fit together logically (coherently) and ergonomically on a single guitar is a fatally flawed concept....(sure we kindof do it, but it isn't simple and straightforward as a musical instrument should be)....maybe Zane Beck was on the right track trying to invent a tuning from the ground up.
(did I just say that out loud?...ouch...) |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Dec 2013 9:48 pm
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Tom, once I get my goofy uni done, I'm thinking of putting Zane King's tuning on my MSA
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 17 Dec 2013 10:12 pm
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The E9/E6 approach does have an appeal of at least starting out in the same key....
You probably recall my banterings about taking some of those Zane(y) tuning ideas and putting the wild string spin on them...getting a fresh start tuning and copedent with easier grips is the big picture there.
Last edited by Tom Gorr on 17 Dec 2013 10:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Dec 2013 10:22 pm
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Tom, once I get my goofy uni done, I'm thinking of putting Zane King's tuning on my MSA
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Dec 2013 8:52 am
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I'm only a beginner but why the reluctance to take the right foot off the volume? Any two of pedals 5-8 can be required together, and they can't all be next to each other or on levers. (Which reminds me, my pedal's a little floppy and I need to make it easier to park.)
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 18 Dec 2013 9:35 am
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The reluctance comes from the difficulty of removing and replacing the volume pedal foot without changes to volume.
I submit that just takes practice
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Dec 2013 10:06 am
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Thanks, Lane, I've just acquired another daily drill!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 18 Dec 2013 10:32 am
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I guess the point is that we tend to play our instruments by what comes 'naturally' and 'easy'. Certain complexities become small barriers, and we avoid playing those changes instinctively or find workarounds that aren't quite right.
Copedents that are easy to play open up a greater range and diversity of expression. What i lose in my 5x5 in (modern) changes, it makes up for in ease of playing, so I believe I use my copedent to its full potential (with the exception of an slight impediment to ease of access to the E--D change in a E9 context due to it remaining on a B6 ish pedal).
In broader view - the volume pedal creates an impediment toward greater tonal textures via right leg pedalling in favor of dynamic expression.
The nature of a lot of my posts on the forum have this thinking in the background. Its an instrument you have to negotiate a lot with...like this: I want something, but what do I have to give up to get it, and is it worth it? |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 18 Dec 2013 1:50 pm
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There are a few places I regularly use 2 feet on the pedals.
One is out of the A+F position... While holding A+F with left foot/knee, you can toggle on/off string 4 with your right foot on the C-pedal.
You can do that on pretty much any steel.
On S12U one place that this comes up is... Say you're playing a swing tune with a 3625 section and you want a 7th chord flavor, you can position your left foot over the b-pedal, and your right foot over P6.
So say C6 at fret-1 is your 1 chord (with E's lowered)...
3=Fret5 B-pedal Left-foot.
6=Fret5 P6 Right-foot.
2=Fret3 B-pedal Left-foot
5=Fret3 P6 - Right foot
1-Fret1 open.
Also playing the B-pedal and P6 at the same time (using two feet) on S12U gives you a nice minor chord grip for any song with a Stormy Monday style progression (lots of swing tunes like House of Blue Lights, etc...).
With E's lowered:
G-Fret8
Am-Fret10 B+P6
Bm-Fret12 B+P6
Bbm-Fret11 B+P6
Am-Fret10 B+P6
D7-Fret10 P6
G-Fret8
On S12U you can also use your right foot to hit P7 when you are playing a 4 chord with AB down (using your left foot), to get a diminished. It just raises string 6 another half tone. |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 18 Dec 2013 3:12 pm
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| Thanks for the insight, much appreciated! |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 18 Dec 2013 4:04 pm
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| Thanks for the insight, much appreciated! |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 18 Dec 2013 4:22 pm
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Pete, I like that!!
Tom, most of my double-footing comes from the musical part of my brain saying "from here, in this grip, I'd like to pull this one note sharp or flat", and my mechanism part of the brain saying "Hey! P7 can do that" and the right foot goes off to hit it.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
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Posted 18 Dec 2013 4:51 pm
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| I can apply that to the changes I'm most comfortable with, but double pedalling isn't one of them. Not yet. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2013 8:42 am
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fwiw, One thing that messes up two footed playing on the fly, is if your Volume pedal changes position when you lift your foot off of it.
You might need to tighten the screws on the side or mess with the spring insude, but it is nice if it stays right where you want it when you lift your foot off.
Tom, Could you please post your Pedal/Lever setup?
'Curious about your 5x5.
Thx,
pete |
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