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Topic: Keys of songs modified to accommodate the guitar player? |
Richard Sinkler
From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 25 Nov 2013 4:26 pm
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Tommy Boswell wrote: |
I have to wonder if Buck Owens sang Together Again in C# (instead of C) to accommodate Tom Brumley's pedal steel solo? |
Possibly, but I think it was more to fit Buck's voice. C would have been bad for Brumley. If I remember right, Buck's band (except Brumley) tuned down a half step. Buck sang in some "off" keys, like C#. And by tuning down, Buck could play using the standard open chords for the keys he sang in. It would be interesting to see how many of Buck's songs were in sharp/flat keys. Maybe some day I'll have the energy and desire to see. _________________ Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Cal Sharp
From: the farm in Kornfield Kounty, TN
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Posted 25 Nov 2013 4:56 pm
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Price did "A Way To Survive" in C on the original record that we all know and love, but he's been doing it in A more recently. Maybe not convenient for the steel player, but Mike Cass doesn't have a problem making it sound good, and I doubt they've had any complaints. Loretta did "Don't Come Home" in C# on the record, but in D on the Wilburn Brothers show. I subbed with Johnny Bush one time and he dropped "Whiskey River" down a step on the last set. Faron would migrate from the record keys sometimes. So, it varies, grasshoppers. Your job is to make the singer and the song sound good, if you can. _________________ C#
Me: Steel Guitar Madness
Latest ebook: Steel Guitar Insanity
Custom Made Covers for Steel Guitars & Amps at Sharp Covers Nashville |
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Richard Sinkler
From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 25 Nov 2013 5:12 pm
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My band also plays "A Way To Survive" in A. After too many years of playing this as an instrumental in C, it was a rough change to play in A. But it works and sounds just as good. _________________ Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Henry Matthews
From: Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2013 1:03 pm
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Tommy Boswell wrote: |
I have to wonder if Buck Owens sang Together Again in C# (instead of C) to accommodate Tom Brumley's pedal steel solo? |
Tommy, Buck Owens and his whole band most of the time tuned all instruments a half step low. I've heard various stories on the why but can't remember any of them.
As far as key changes with guitar and steel, it doesn't make any difference to me as long as I know beforehand that it's going to be in a strange key. We had a singer do Look At Us in C# one night and came out ok.
On the other hand, I'm a fiddle player too, so try kicking off Right or Wrong in F# because they can't sing it in G. They either do it in G for me or pick another song when I'm on fiddle. Can't believe anyone can't go a half step up or down to sing without any major problems. _________________ Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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John Castelletti
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Posted 26 Nov 2013 5:42 pm
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Henry Matthews wrote: |
Tommy Boswell wrote: |
I have to wonder if Buck Owens sang Together Again in C# (instead of C) to accommodate Tom Brumley's pedal steel solo? |
Tommy, Buck Owens and his whole band most of the time tuned all instruments a half step low. I've heard various stories on the why but can't remember any of them.
As far as key changes with guitar and steel, it doesn't make any difference to me as long as I know beforehand that it's going to be in a strange key. We had a singer do Look At Us in C# one night and came out ok.
On the other hand, I'm a fiddle player too, so try kicking off Right or Wrong in F# because they can't sing it in G. They either do it in G for me or pick another song when I'm on fiddle. Can't believe anyone can't go a half step up or down to sing without any major problems. |
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Henry Matthews
From: Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2013 10:01 pm
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Don't understand John????? _________________ Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Pete Burak
From: Portland, OR USA
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Posted 27 Nov 2013 7:04 am
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I read somewhere that Buck said the reason they tune down a half-step is because his voice sounded better coming through the Radio that way.
I guess he was a big radio station guy in the 60's.
fwiw, In my own trials, tuning down a half step doesn't seem like much on a musical instrument, but it makes a big difference for the vocal chords... alot less tension.
In my case it drops alot of songs that were a bit of a struggle right into the middle of my range. |
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Donny Hinson
From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 27 Nov 2013 10:46 am
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Mike Perlowin wrote: |
We NEED TO be able to play in any key. Period. As has been already mentioned, different singers have different ranges, and we need to accommodate them.
This is not negotiable. |
Thanks Mike! I can't say it any better than that. |
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John Castelletti
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Posted 27 Nov 2013 11:10 am
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Oops… i forgot to ask my question, that being;
Did Tom Brumley also tune down a 1/2 step? |
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Ray Montee
From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 27 Nov 2013 11:54 am About "STRANGE KEYS"...........
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I've seen references here about "strange keys"........
and the difficulty in changing from one key to another.
Please, explain what a "Strange Key"is.........
It's been customary for decades, to play in whatever key the vocalist or band leader indicates. With the steel guitar, changing keys is a snap when compared to many other instruments. |
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Henry Matthews
From: Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 27 Nov 2013 1:49 pm
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F# or C# on a fiddle (to me anyway)
No, I don't think Tom tuned down a half step. _________________ Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Roual Ranes
From: Atlanta, Texas, USA
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Posted 27 Nov 2013 6:55 pm
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Tell the tele picker that your doing "Folsom Prison Blues" in Eb. |
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Richard Sinkler
From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 27 Nov 2013 8:29 pm
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Ray said:
Quote: |
Please, explain what a "Strange Key"is......... |
Well, I have one key on my keyring that I have absolutely no clue as to what it goes to. That seems strange to me. _________________ Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Joachim Kettner
From: Germany
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Posted 28 Nov 2013 1:57 am Re: About
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Ray Montee wrote: |
I've seen references here about "strange keys"........
Please, explain what a "Strange Key"is.........
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B-flat for example, will become a "strange key" to me, when the tune has lots of chords. I find it harder to find the positions. Allthough I have no problem with a three chord song. I'm so depending on the fret markers. _________________ Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
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Michael Coggins
From: Sligo, Ireland
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Posted 28 Nov 2013 5:22 am Keys to accomodate guitar player
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Everything was fine until the singer/rhythm guitarist "discovered" the capo! Now good ole open string friendly G and A on 6-string guitar and mandolin are hard work.....good for practice though! Btw, in Winnie Winston's book, he describes Ab and F# as "off" keys. _________________ Mullen Royal Precision SD10, 2002 Fender Telecaster, Alden Mandocaster, Boss Katana 100-212, Stage One V/P, Tom Bradshaw Resonator Pedal. Wampler Paisley Drive, Wampler Ego Compressor, Boss Super Chorus, Simble Overdrive. |
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Richard Sinkler
From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 28 Nov 2013 8:25 am
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In the classic country band I play in, it isn't uncommon to have songs in "strange keys", Ab or Bb. We play some songs in Ab and. Other flat keys pop up on occasion too. If that is what the singer needs to sing it in, I better be able to play it. Some of it is also that the leader of my band is in his 70's, and he may not be able to sing a half step higher or a half step lower to put the song in a "not so strange" key.
I just find it hard to play in G# or A#.
I by no means am a great singer. I won't sing on stage, but probably could if I had too. But I often will pick up my acoustic guitar, or when I had my keyboards, I would play piano, and sing some songs. Almost always I couldn't sing them in the keys on the record. Sometimes I couldn't even get close. One example of a song that is in Db on the record ( a girl song) and I have to do it in Ab to get the full range of notes she sings. _________________ Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Richard Sinkler
From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 28 Nov 2013 8:48 am
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Pete Burak wrote: |
The singer in one recent band told the Tele guy he wants to do "Only Daddy Gonna Walk The Line", in "D"!
He said, "Yeah, just kick it off in D".
[Ya might have to be a guitar player to get that one]. |
I'm sure we can find many examples of this kind of difference in keys. I have played that song in ksys that were different from the original, and the guitar players were good enough to play the licks somewhat close to the original. Did it sound exactly like record? No. But I bet no one in the crowds ever noticed or cared, unless they were a guitar player that knew how the licks were originally played.
The most important thing for us to realize is, we are a sideman and really don't have the right to tell any singer what key they should sing the song in, although I have been in bands where someone would make a suggestion to the singer about doing it in a key better suited for the singer, often taking it into keys like Ab or Bb. But almost never was it changed for the guitar or steel guitar player. Unless you were the leader of the band, I really wouldn't recommend you telling the singer, and maybe leader, to change keys because it better suits you. If you do, see how long you will have that gig. _________________ Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Joachim Kettner
From: Germany
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Posted 28 Nov 2013 9:44 am C'est La Vie
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Maybe nobody in the crowd except the guitar players cared, yes.
But that little figure at 1.41- 1.45 can only be played on the first fret, A and B pedals down (B-flat). Nobody can do it in another key, I'm sure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv6fdib3GBI _________________ Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
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Dave Hopping
From: Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 28 Nov 2013 11:12 am
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Unless you were the leader of the band, I really wouldn't recommend you telling the singer, and maybe leader, to change keys because it better suits you. If you do, see how long you will have that gig.[/quote]
Dead-on,Richard.That's EXACTLY what happens in the real world.It's why singers get a pass on doing it wrong and sidemen don't.That's just business,but I think we'd all agree with Van Morrison's statement about how he felt about music and how he felt about the music business.
Happy Thanksgiving,all! |
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Richard Sinkler
From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 28 Nov 2013 11:25 am Re: C'est La Vie
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Joachim Kettner wrote: |
Maybe nobody in the crowd except the guitar players cared, yes.
But that little figure at 1.41- 1.45 can only be played on the first fret, A and B pedals down (B-flat). Nobody can do it in another key, I'm sure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zv6fdib3GBI |
I'm not a guitar player, but the guitar player in my band plays the intro and stuff pretty close to the record, but in the key of D. Maybe he can't play it like in the YouTube video, but I can't tell the difference.
Back to the "Look At Us" intro. In D, the part where Hughey slides down to the 1st fret (if played in Eb), requires lifting the bar or sliding it,off the strings to get that 7th he gets buy using the E to D# lever and the B pedal and 6th string lower, ans split tuning the string to get the 7th tone. I can't do it clean enough, so I just play strings 5,6 & 9 to get the 7th. It's is not exact, but it is close enough that no one says anything. I did ask the drummer if he could sing the song in Eb to better accomodate the steel intro, but he had a hard time in Eb. Like I said earlier in this post, he wanted to do in in Db, but for some reason (I can't remember right now and don't have time set up my guitar to figure out the reason) I/We talked him into doing it in D. _________________ Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Herb Steiner
From: Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 28 Nov 2013 11:40 am
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Played a gig a couple years back filling in for my buddy, and the fiddler/guitarist/singer made this big intro "now we're gonna feature the great Herb Steiner on a famous steel guitar tune he will regale you all with, one entitled 'Steelin' the Blues."
Then he turned to me and said "Key of D." I came back with "Eric, the song's in Db." He got a smartass look in his face and in a smarmy voice told me "Hey, the singer calls the key!"
Okay, I played it in his key, which came off great anyway. But I longed for the moment when I could call of "Orange Blossom Special, Johnny Cash version, key of G#. Kick it off, kid" simply for the opportunity to say "hey, singer calls the key."
FWIW, after he had the same conversation with Biller and a number of other steel players, still clueless, something must have dawned on him because he later came up to me at another gig we were on and profusely apologized... "I guess I get a little arrogant, sometimes. "
So, all was forgiven. He IS a great musician, after all; simply ignorant of how the steel guitar is played. _________________ My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Earnest Bovine
From: Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 28 Nov 2013 1:21 pm
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Herb Steiner wrote: |
'Steelin' the Blues."
Then he turned to me and said "Key of D." I came back with "Eric, the song's in Db." ...
Okay, I played it in his key, which came off great anyway.
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Did you play it on the E9 neck (C#6 neck) to do the hammer-on notes? |
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Herb Steiner
From: Spicewood TX 78669
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Posted 28 Nov 2013 1:29 pm
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No, I played it on the correct C6 neck, only sliding the bar from f.1 to f.2, instead of hammering on f.1 like on the Byrd original. It was no big whup doing it there, it's just... you know, "let's feature Herb, but uh... in MY key."
I do work occasionally with a married couple, he on lead Atkins-style guitar and she on upright bass. Because she sings the majority of stuff, we do songs in her keys, which means "Milk Cow Blues" in B, as well as "Right Or Wrong" also in B. You fiddlers out there will understand.
In that band, we do "SGR" in D, because that's where he learned it on the guitar. They're such totally nice people, and they always pay REALLY WELL, so WTF, if they want it in D, that's where they shall have it and I smile all the way back to Austin, where I bank. _________________ My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Henry Matthews
From: Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 28 Nov 2013 7:50 pm
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Herb, you are always dead on with your post and I now admire you even more as a musician which was a lot anyway.
Being a decent fiddle player as long as you stay in major keys, you know A,C,D, E and G and a horrible fiddle player in sharps and flats, I can truthfully say to the singer, do it in this key or we do something else, that is if you want fiddle on it. Players like B. Flores, Snuffy Elmore and many many more can play in those keys, I can't. But and I say again as I posted above, steel and guitar really don't make that much difference, I can improvise but if you are a singer and playing either a dance or a stage show, I still don't see why you can't go a half step either way on most occasion and let me play my part right. in the studio, I can retune down a step which is what a lot of fiddlers do any way. _________________ Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Ray Montee
From: Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 28 Nov 2013 11:23 pm Your conversation got me to thinking, once again.
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Don't they do MODULATIONS anymore?
Moving up or down the neck to go into a key better suited to this or that? |
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