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Topic: Sho-Bud/Helper Springs |
Bruce Hamilton
From:
Vancouver BC Canada
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Posted 18 Nov 2013 8:16 pm |
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| Over the years I have worked on several Sho-Buds and whenever I have found a string that will not raise or lower properly removing the associated helper springs usually solved the problem. I am curious as to how the guitars were setup originally as they don't have this problem when they come new from the factory.Is anyone aware of the procedure for having both raises and lowers on a string work properly with helper springs? |
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 19 Nov 2013 10:01 am
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Bruce, I'm not a Sho-Bud Technician, but everyone I know has believed that removing the helper-springs was a positive action.
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"FROM THEN TIL' NOW" |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 19 Nov 2013 2:17 pm
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I believe in helper springs, but I wish they were adjustable on a Bud.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Dave Diehl
From:
Mechanicsville, MD, USA
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Posted 19 Nov 2013 2:56 pm
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| Duane Marrs always told me, if the finger has a lower on it, a helper should be there. If it's strickly a raise, remove the helper. Someone like Ricky Davis would be a good person to consult on that. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 19 Nov 2013 3:06 pm
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Actually Dave; the opposite of that.
I only use helper springs for fingers that just Raise.
Here's also a whole tutorial I wrote about how to balance the spring tension and if a helper is there or not; in all to try and balance finger movement better>
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Yes all those lower springs serve a purpose…..not just in the lowering.
They are there also to stabilize the lower section when you raise a string.
Take for instance.
If you raise your 1st string say a whole tone on E9th…..>if you tighten the lower spring almost all the way…..>you will find that that raise with happen much easier and sooner; as making that lower section more tight….>the raise section will move more freely.
AS for the strings that lower…..Yes you want the lower springs just tight enough so that the lower will come back to pitch….> and maybe a couple turns just tighter….so that it will not have to be adjusted again.
Also take for instance the 3rd and 6th string raise on the B pedal…..>you’ll notice that they don’t particularly move together; as it takes more travel and throw to pull the 3rd string up to pitch than the 6th string.
So to make them pull more even…..Loosen the lower spring on the 6th string half way….and tighten the lower spring on the 3rd string almost all the way and leave the raise spring on….>so with that what you are doing is stabilizing that 3rd string lower section very tight…so that the raise on the 3rd will happen more quickly and then it might move with the now lazier 6th string more so and taking the raise spring off the 6th string helps almost perfectly....but for sure if you use a .012p for the 3rd and .022w for the 6th; then they become dead perfect…..>make sense???
Also another trick……on those little Raise springs that are next to the body and attach to the raise portion of the finger and onto a bracket on the body of the guitar.
Those help strings raise…..so have them on the ones that raise…….and if you don’t have them on the ones that lower….>than of course the lower will happen more freely and moreso……>so here’s another trick I have with them.
Take the 4th string and 8th string lowers…>well you’ll notice that they don’t particularly move together also…..cause the 4th string needs more throw/distance than the 8th. So to get them to move together better…..I like to take off the raise spring of the 4th…..and leave it on the 8th…..>so now the 4th will lower quicker and the 8th will drag behind a little cause the raise spring is on 8th and not on the 4th and the 8th will drag behind because of the raise spring inhibiting the lower……so now they will move better together….
Ok there’s your little “Spring†lesson for the day…
Have fun.
Ricky
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Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
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Posted 19 Nov 2013 3:39 pm
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Thank you Ricky for this.
_________________
To write with a broken pencil is pointless. |
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Bruce Hamilton
From:
Vancouver BC Canada
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Posted 19 Nov 2013 4:15 pm
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| Thanks RickY for the information. The problem I always run into is on the 4th and 8th strings. With the helper spring on the 4th the 8 string will only lower so far then the raise finger kicks in and will not allow it to lower to the proper note. Again removing the helper spring on the 4th string resolves this but I am curious how they set it up at the factory to work with the spring. |
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Dave Diehl
From:
Mechanicsville, MD, USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2013 6:06 am
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| Sorry, I didn't check my notes before posting. I knew it was one did and one didn't need them. Thanks Ricky for posting... good info. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2013 10:04 am
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Bruce it will lower with the helper on the 4th. and I believe all helper springs came on them from the factory...but if you get any grit/dirt; gummy oil; any friction at all in the pivots as the lower starts to tense as it's pulled...the raise "could" come with it slightly. That's why you remove the helper; or clean the fingers and make sure everything is pulling perfectly straight.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Storm Rosson
From:
Silver City, NM. USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2013 11:22 am
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 Thanks Ricky, great info on how it's done RIGHT by a guru on settin up these divorce makers lol...priceless knowledge thx again Ricky....Stormy  |
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Bent Romnes
From:
London,Ontario, Canada
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 20 Nov 2013 5:44 pm
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It is very important to establish WHICH era Shobud changer we are talking. They are not created equal.  
Not trying to stir the pot, now. 
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"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
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Jimmy Gibson
From:
Cornwall, England
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Posted 21 Nov 2013 12:43 am Bd springs
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James is right my Pro 3 Custom has not got the adjustable changer springs, the only way to adjust the tension is by removing them.
Jimmy |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2013 3:24 am
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Just to be clear, I don't think any Sho Bud ever allowed one to adjust the raise springs; they are either on or off. The lower springs were adjustable on some older models (at least on the Professional series), but not on Super-Pro era guitars.
Ok James or Ricky, come in and set this all straight. |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Nov 2013 4:27 am
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Ricky taught me. Coop did too(R.I.P.). On Super Pro era, (or ANY era, for that matter) your results vary, too, by how CLEAN your changer is and FREE your parts move. So, if you have got a dirty changer, you got a job ahead of you, if you want to gain some tuning stability.
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"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 21 Nov 2013 7:05 am
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Yes some good points here. James you are right...from the Professional to the super pro...there were at least 5 different configurations of finger assemblies.
And once you got to the triple raise/double lower super pro finger....it actually did fine with a raise spring on it; when lowering that same finger. But all the fingers thru the years acted and reacted so much on whether the finger and pivots and guides and whatever are clear/clean or not. So the Spring tensions and raise springs or not; so varied on that. IT's just a good idea to get familiar with what is going on with ones particular prob. or wanting to improve certain movements...of to what to do and the possibilities that ARE there in a limited system.
Yes on the NON-adjustable lower/return springs; to tighten them; is to take it off and cut rings off until you get the right tension(heck I've had to do that on some carters that the raise was moving when lowering...so not uncommon). So that little tutorial I wrote is just a "for your knowledge" and the premise will work for almost anything.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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James Morehead
From:
Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Nov 2013 6:28 pm
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Listen to Ricky--he knows.
It is good to explore how your changer reacts--learn it. That's how you can massage the results out of it for your particular copedant.
_________________
"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement"~old cowboy proverb.
shobud@windstream.net |
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Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
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Posted 21 Nov 2013 10:11 pm
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James & Ricky, if you could magically take all the various ShoBud changer designs and merge them into a new ShoBud style system, what would it look like?
My dream ShoBud would be an R&B style system with more refined racks. It's so easy to configure and simply elegant. Great design. But, it probably can't do tunable splits.
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To write with a broken pencil is pointless. |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2013 2:56 am
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Tom, tunable splits are very straightforward on a rack and barrel system. I have one on the sixth string E9 which I lower a whole step on LKR. By adding a raise barrel at that lever, I can tune the split much as I would on any all-pull system (I have the same basic set up on my Super Pro). The only difference is I am turning the same hex tuner at the end plate for that raise barrel as for the raise on pedal B.
I also Raise 6 a half-tone on my LKV (long story), and to be fair, since everything is very finely dialed in, I will occasionally activate more than one of the raise barrels on string six when turning the hex tuner at the endplate. But knowing that this is a danger, I check whenever I tune one of them and correct if necessary. |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2013 9:35 am
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Absolutely Tom; mine would be the Single/Single changer; with Barrel Tuning. The pulling is probably pullers with rollers...well heck; JUST LIKE MY LDG..ha.
So that's my best Shobud mech. But if I ever design my own steel; we have many many tricks up our sleeves that will blow the doors of pretty much all that..ha.
ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 22 Nov 2013 9:50 am
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| Quote: |
| The problem I always run into is on the 4th and 8th strings. With the helper spring on the 4th the 8 string will only lower so far then the raise finger kicks in and will not allow it to lower to the proper note. Again removing the helper spring on the 4th string resolves this but I am curious how they set it up at the factory to work with the spring. |
The phenomenon you describe is often due to the rivets wearing out on the changer, and thus the mechanism begins to shift as the lowering action progresses. You can drive the center pin out far enough to remove and swap the worn changer fingers with those on strings that do not require a lower, that's the best I have been able to do so far... |
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Tom Wolverton
From:
Carpinteria, CA
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Posted 22 Nov 2013 11:30 am
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Thanks Ricky for the info. I played a "first year" LDG that Jim Palenscar had in his shop. I should have bought it. It was great.
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To write with a broken pencil is pointless. |
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