RKL is raising, after the half stop

Glenn Burleigh · From: St. Louis, MO, USA

Hey folks,
It was past due, so I recently change my strings, on my MSA Classic and, after I was done, have had some issues. At first the raise on my E's was sticking, but that went away. Unfortunately, the other issue I've had hasn't. When doing RKL, to drop G# to F#, it drops to G and then raises, as the raise finger seems to be getting pulled, after the halfway point. So, I can't get down to F#, and it's driving me batty. Anybody got any tips? Does it seem that I need to clean the changer? Is there a decent how-to guide? The last time I took my steel to a shop, it came back worse than I brought it in, so I've been doing DIY maintenance, ever since. OK, not worse, but not better, and they changed my copedent, without permission. So, I spent time and money and got it back with no improvement, and had to switch the underside around. Most of the problems have been simple mechanical things that I can figure out, and this is the first thing that's stumped me, so I'm pretty sure I can fix it, if someone can point me in the right direction.
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Dekley Slimline 3x4, Sho~bud Professional, Encore 3x5, Fender Custom Professional, Gold Tone PDS-D, Melbert Roundabout, Gibson Les Paul Junior Special, Ibanez Custom Agent, Danelectro U2 Baritone, various Teles and Strats.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

I'd turn her upside down and manually work that knee lever and look for something binding, or hanging up. In the process of changing strings something slipped, or moved, out of position. You should find it with a careful visual inspection.
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Best regards,
Mike

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Did you change gauges?
I'd think about a drop of oil on the scissors pivot.
If no other changes were made, it should be OK.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

was that change 'ever' on there working properly?

Glenn Burleigh · From: St. Louis, MO, USA

It was working properly. I did change the string gauges. It was restrung withe a Universal set, at the shop, and I just got a set with the gauges for ExtE9, which is how I've been playing it. My pedal action is much easier, now. As to whether, or not it changed from wound to unwound, I'm not certain, and I gave the old strings to a friend for her artwork, so I can't drag them out of the trash. Everything else is working hunky dory. Is the scissors pivot the spot in the middle of the finger, where there seems to be a bolt?
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Dekley Slimline 3x4, Sho~bud Professional, Encore 3x5, Fender Custom Professional, Gold Tone PDS-D, Melbert Roundabout, Gibson Les Paul Junior Special, Ibanez Custom Agent, Danelectro U2 Baritone, various Teles and Strats.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Right. The bolt is actually a rivet. It wants a drop of oil every year.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

The problem is too much return tension on the lowering finger. Corrected by going to a heavier guage string, or lowering the return spring tension. I'd do the latter...as long as your string is the right guage! Get a spring of similar diameter and length, but made of lighter wire. If you can't come up with one, I can probably make you one out of some old spring stock I have.

Glenn Burleigh · From: St. Louis, MO, USA

I've tried to oil that scissor joint, and the raise finger seems to be moving less. It's no longer raising, after the half-way point, but I still can't get quite down to F#. This makes me think that scissor point is the culprit. Is there a "best" way to oil that properly?
Glenn
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Dekley Slimline 3x4, Sho~bud Professional, Encore 3x5, Fender Custom Professional, Gold Tone PDS-D, Melbert Roundabout, Gibson Les Paul Junior Special, Ibanez Custom Agent, Danelectro U2 Baritone, various Teles and Strats.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

A spout oiler. But most light oil will creep in there.

Donny probably has the real answer. You can either replace a single spring or swap out the MSA fixed ones with adjustable springs. Check Michael Yahl if he's open, or Jim Palenscar or Tom Bradshaw.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Glenn Burleigh · From: St. Louis, MO, USA

I've been looking up the different sets of strings, and it seems that the kind I normally use has a 20(plain) in that position, and this brand(Earnie Ball) uses a 22(wound). It could just be that, and(if so) this will be the time I learned the lesson to just wait, instead of taking a pack that a friend offers. I'm gonna go get a loose string, tomorrow, and see if that does the trick. Otherwise, hopefully he can help. Thanks so much, for all of the help and tips!
Glenn
_________________
Dekley Slimline 3x4, Sho~bud Professional, Encore 3x5, Fender Custom Professional, Gold Tone PDS-D, Melbert Roundabout, Gibson Les Paul Junior Special, Ibanez Custom Agent, Danelectro U2 Baritone, various Teles and Strats.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The wounds do require drastically different pulls.
Are you SURE you have a half stop? That's uncharacteristic for that change.
Switching back to plain will almost certainly fix it.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Glenn Burleigh · From: St. Louis, MO, USA

Hey folks,
This took me forever to get back to, as I had to replace that pull rod(let a friend borrow it that bent it at the tuning nut side, finally sheared off). Well, I thought that was going to be the end of my problems, but no dice. Got the new rod, put it in, and I'm back to square one. It's raising again, after about half way(I guess there isn't a half-stop there, just always seemed to be one). I'm at my wits end. It's truly driving me crazy, and my back is killing me, from leaning over the damn thing, all day. I've got the correct string gauges, etc, and I'm sure it's a simple mechanical fix, but I can't chase it down.

Also, I know that this is sort of forum blasphemy, but does anyone know someone, besides Scotty's, that I could take it to, in St. Louis? My one experience with Scotty's was poor, which is why I've been doing stuff myself, but I think this one's gonna beat me. I want to clarify that I didn't have a bad experience with Scotty, but that the work on my guitar was subbed out to someone that changed my copedent and didn't actually fix what I had brought it to them to fix. I'd rather deal directly with the repair person, this time.
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Dekley Slimline 3x4, Sho~bud Professional, Encore 3x5, Fender Custom Professional, Gold Tone PDS-D, Melbert Roundabout, Gibson Les Paul Junior Special, Ibanez Custom Agent, Danelectro U2 Baritone, various Teles and Strats.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Did it get better when you loosened the return spring?

Is the string plain, or wound?

If you ignore the pull rod, or even remove the pull rod, what happens when you push on the changer's lower bar with a screwdriver or something? Does the raise bar move away from its stop as you lower? Does the rotating finger hit something rigid such as a limit screw?

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

It's been twenty plus years since I worked on any MSA guitars, so I can't recall the undercarriage specifics, but a couple of thoughts......

1] Remove the string, rods and return spring on the offending changer finger, then work it manually. Will the finger move in both directions (raise and lower)?

2] Does it have raise-helper springs? I've had problems with them on Zums and Buds. In combination w/ a tight lower-return spring, they can shift the balance of opposing forces to favor raising over lowering. If that's the case, the solution is to either loosen (possibly remove) the helper spring and/or decrease the return spring tension.

3] Does your guitar have spit-tuning screws mounted on the rear of the neck that block the changer finger before full lower excursion is achieved? If so, try backing them off.

Jerry Roller · From: Van Buren, Arkansas USA

If the pull rod is in the hole closest to the finger pivot try moving it down further away from the pivot. If you used a lighter string guage there may not be enough string tension to keep from dragging the whole changer finger ass'y forward. Just one more possibility.
Jerry

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

Glenn said: "I had to replace that pull rod(let a friend borrow it that bent it at the tuning nut side, finally sheared off"

To me, that's a very big clue. The tuning end of the rod being bent that bad may have also bent the changer scissors. MSA changers are made of a rather soft aluminum (or steel?) and can be bent easily with sideways pressure. I think the scissor is binding as it moves, causing the raise to be dragged along with the lower.

I've torn down many MSAs and always carefully inspect all the changer scissors, and invariably find one or two that are not flat enough to move through their full range of motion without some excess friction. A little gentle prodding/adjustment corrects the problem (usually).....but you have to take the changer apart to properly make the correction.

Tony's suggestion about removing the string, pull rod, and return spring, will enable you to see if the scissors are indeed binding. If you find the scissors move freely with very little friction, then ignore my above comment. The problem lies elsewhere.
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Best regards,
Mike

Glenn Burleigh · From: St. Louis, MO, USA

I threw my back out, the morning after I last posted, so I haven't gotten a chance to do these, but I think the heating pad's gonna have me good to go, in the next day, or so. I truly appreciate all of the input I've received, both on this thread and via email. I'll let everyone know, when I get it solved!
_________________
Dekley Slimline 3x4, Sho~bud Professional, Encore 3x5, Fender Custom Professional, Gold Tone PDS-D, Melbert Roundabout, Gibson Les Paul Junior Special, Ibanez Custom Agent, Danelectro U2 Baritone, various Teles and Strats.

Glenn Burleigh · From: St. Louis, MO, USA

So, Mr. Bradshaw offered to let me call him and talk it over. It's still not fixed, but here's what I learned. with the return spring taken off, the raise comes forward, but not nearly as much as with spring. In fact, by simply placing my finger on it(with a little downward pressure), the raise finger doesn't move, and I can lower the correct amount. Mr. Bradshaw thinks that I may have some kind of spur, that is causing friction to pull that raise forward. After this, he also thinks that there is some deal with the spring tension, as well. He suggests putting a light spring between the open raise hole on the changer and the endplate and seeing if this solves the problem. I'm gonna go to the hardware store and see if i can find a spring that would work. Also, this adds credence to the suggestions to get a lighter return spring, on that string. Once again, thanks for all of the help. I've got a little lightweight S10 for gigs, which has been a life saver, but the MSA is my favorite and the guitar I far prefer for recording(absolutely love the old supersustain pickup sound and the tonal variations the tone knob allows me), so I'm really hoping to get this all figured out.
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Dekley Slimline 3x4, Sho~bud Professional, Encore 3x5, Fender Custom Professional, Gold Tone PDS-D, Melbert Roundabout, Gibson Les Paul Junior Special, Ibanez Custom Agent, Danelectro U2 Baritone, various Teles and Strats.

Tom Bradshaw · From: Walnut Creek, California, USA

I forgot to mention to Glenn that he should also simply try using the other vacant hole on the changer lever that lowers the string (in his case, the 6th string).

Beyond his problem, there are other difficulties with those old "Classic" model MSA's that sometimes defies logic. The main one is what Glenn has encountered. I've seen his problem work both ways: 1. The raise lever moves when a string is lowered and 2. The lowering lever moves when the string is raised. When it is determined that the spring tension is appropriate in strength to keep the lowering lever in place, usually it is just the opposite: the spring tension is too great. Neither makes sense to me, but reducing the tension has corrected the problem.

Another frustrating situation occurs with the use of the "Franklin pedal" (lowering the 5th and 6th strings). It often results in the 6th string being out of tune when returning to the use of the A and B pedals. I don't understand it. ...Tom

richard burton · From: Britain

If the lower return spring is excessively tight, this causes the lowering segment to pivot around the nylon tuner, and the string will raise.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Go to the head of the class, Richard! You'd be surprised at how many people there are that do not realize that little fact. Winking

Whenever someone had an all-pull guitar that wouldn't lower a note properly, that would always be the first thing I'd check for.

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