U-12 Players question on 2nd string C#

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

How many U-12 players lower 2nd string to C# and use it?
Same with Vert B-Bb?
Thanks
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I'm atypical, but I lower its analog (1st string) and use it regularly.
Dropping the B to A# is a standard change on both necks, use that regularly as well
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Niels Andrews · From: Salinas, California, USA

My LKL is B to Bb, my LKV is B to A, and when I lower my E's I lower my second string a full tone. I don't really use the vertical yet and Reece left before he told me what to do with it, so I need to figure that one out.
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Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Ken,

I use the 2nd string C# a lot. With my Uni, I have the option to lock the B6 tuning and that not only lowers the E's, but also string two so I don't have to use a lever. If I am playing unlocked, then it is on a lever.

B-Bb is on RKL and also is heavily used.

At this point I can't imagine playing without these notes.

Niels - I had not thought about putting the C# on the E-lever. I might have to ponder that one. As for your B to A, that is a change Buddy E used alot - I tend to use the B to Bb a lot on top of chords for the melody line. I think the same would be true going the other way too... but I'm a newbie, and don't have that change...but planning on putting it on the D-10 I've got coming my way (another fixer-upper). I'm sure there are many other uses for it as well. It also, I think, gives you an augmented chord on strings 5, 6, and 8 when combined with pedal 6 (I think that's pedal 5 for you - raises string 4, lowers string Cool

: E+ open or fret 12.

Here is Buddy's comment on it:

"If you do not have lever (g), I recommend putting it on. It not only gives you something to relate to, it bfrings back the harmony that was lost by removing the high G string. By moving the bar up 3 fertts from the root position and using lever (g) and pedal 5, you maintian the high G sound with a much richer timbre."

Of course, Uni's do have the high G (F# for B6), but that gives you another option.

Doug

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I tune my 2nd string to C# and raise it. It seems to be better for my purposes.

My B-Bb change is on the infamous wrist lever, and is also frequently used. (Hi Doug,) My vertical raises the b2 F# strings to G (natural.)

Gere are some pictures of wrist levers:

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Chris Reesor · From: British Columbia, Canada

I have the second string whole tone lower on my E lower lever (RKR). It is a bit long and stiff but it is worth getting used to it for several reasons.

1. gives the 2nd scale degree on string 2, like a C6 1st string D. Of course you already have the fifth on string 1 (F#) and the sixth (G#) on string 3.

2. Hit the E lowers, and the top eight strings are a G# min/B maj. pentatonic scale. Use the A pedal on string 9, and that extends it down to string 10.

3. You can hit C# and D# from both directions with pedal/lever bends. Sometimes how you get to the note is as important as the note itself.

4.Now you can do a unison bend with the A pedal and the lowered 2nd string , then play the note a fourth higher on string 1. Classic rock/blues lick. This is two frets back from the no pedals position.... fret 3 for the key of A.

There is surely much more that I haven't found yet.

As for the B lower to Bb on LKV, yes I have it there. I use it pretty often, both with and without the split with the A pedal. I hate to say in both E9 and B6 modes as I am making a conscious effort to look at this beast as one big tuning. My Excel has a lock but it is not hooked up at the moment... deliberately so.

Cheers, Chris
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

But you can't hit the G#m then pull the D# down if you combine the 2 and 4 lowers
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rick andrews · From: Westminster Co 80031

I use a B6 tuning and tune my 2nd string open to C#. I raise it to a D on LKR which also splits both Es (4th and 8th strings) and raise it to Eflat on RLR which raises both Eflats to E.

Niels Andrews · From: Salinas, California, USA

Is there an advantage to making the 2nd string a 6th? I would also lose my unison, I think it works better as a 7th. If I want a 6th I use my 5th string with an A pedal or drop into B6 mode or am I off base here. This the type of discussion I really value on the forum. Keep it rolling. Very Happy

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Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo.

Christopher Woitach · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

My 5th string lower is LKL, LKV lowers G's to F# (for you, G# to G)
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Niels, I don't think of it only as a 6, or 7, or any other number, as its value (of course) changes depending on which pocket or form you've got under your bar at the moment (or, more accurately, in your head).
IIRC, Reece (I see no need to exclude his tuning in these discussions, you just transpose them up a step so everybody's on the same page, and I like its other pulls: my Uni is an unflatted variant, since I am used to having open A, E, B and a sorta D available) tuned his to an analog of C# (actually C, but he was half a step down, and it's the 1st string since the F# was not at 1, but 3).
Jimmy Crawford, Terry Bethel and others who followed that model tune/tuned 2 to D and both raised and lowered it, so they'd have all three tones.

The value of one tone over the other?
IME, the copedent and one's style/vocabulary make up a pretty powerful but subtle feedback loop. The notes and changes you have influence what you think to play, yet your personality and vocabulary (and, to a large extent, inertia) influence your copedent. To tune to another value would make me either think differently to get to what I play, take away some of my vocabulary, or offer new visions of other licks and patterns. Or all three, depending on any number of variables, and to differing degrees.
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Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Niels, while I'm still getting accustomed to my Uni setup, I use both the D#-C and to C# with the whole step lower on the knee that lowers Es to Ebs, it seems most useful in combo with those. The B to Bb change is certainly ubiquitous to both ways of looking at the Uni tuning, I find more to do with it all the time. Mine on the vertical knee.
Douglas, I believe that comment of Buddy's from his C6 course was referring to the C-C# raise on a knee, and for a Uni that would be B-C. A whole different use than the 2nd string lowers. I'd like to have that change on my guitar but I've run out of levers!
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Chris Reesor · From: British Columbia, Canada

Lane, I have the second string lower to D on my LKL, along with string 9 B to D. Wouldn't want to be without either change, and as Mark van A. says, the whole step drop seems most useful along with the E lowers. I believe he meant to say D# - D (rather than D# - C) is on another lever. I don't care for half stops, and I believe that pulling 9 & 2 to D on the same lever is the best arrangement, for me at least.
In an earlier post, you said I couldn't lower the D# in a G# min (to get a dim triad, I suppose ) now you will see that indeed I can, just pick 6, 5, 2 and then hit LKL. Add RKL, my E to F raises, and 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 becomes a big stack of minor thirds. Neat.

As you say, the changes you have will affect how you think, and how you think musically will affect the changes you want. A feedback loop indeed.

Cheers, Chris
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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Since my D# string is on string 1, we can't say I lower my second (G#) to C#.
So, by "its analog", I mean the strings that serve the same function.
On my guitar, the first five strings are
D#
G#
F#
D#
B
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Robert Parent · From: Gillette, WY

I tune my 2nd string to C# (open) and raise it on the RKL with a half stop for the D and Eb notes. The same setup for my D-10's... Have been doing it that way since about 1976.

Robert

Robert Parent · From: Gillette, WY

I tune my 2nd string to C# (open) and raise it on the RKL with a half stop for the D and Eb notes. The same setup for my D-10's... Have been doing it that way since about 1976.

Robert

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

On my 8 and 6 plus lock lever Uni, I Lower 2 to D and lower 2 to C#... on different levers. I'm still thrashing around about where to put them. Right now, 2 lowers and 9 raises to D on RKR. 2 lowers to C# and 10 raises to a B on LKL 2, which is inside and forward of my normal E to F on LKL1. With LKL2 and RKR engaged, I have the string 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 1 .... of standard E9. Releasing the RKR with the A pedal engaged, gives me the E9 style 9th string lower. Works for me when my brain wants some of those lower string E9 things.

I do consider it one big tuning and regularly use "B6 pedals" without lowering the Es... etc.

I have, and use the B to A# lower on a long LKV lever.

I have a lock, but I don't use it.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Chris, I could be wrong, but I think you would havedifficulty playing some of this stuff. Again, if you have the changes on your Guitar, and would know whether or not you can do them if you wanted to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdfmMfzvcI4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

As I said earlier, I tune my 2nd string to C# and raise it to D and D# on 2 different knee levers. (I hate half stops.)

The reason for this setup is quite simple: I like it.

As I also said earlier, it's all subjective. My setup works for me. It may or may not work for somebody else.

The steel is not a "one size fits all" instrument. You have to experiment and find out what works for you, and don't pay any attention to anybody who says you have to co it his or her way.

There is no right or wrong. Only a matter of what do you prefer.
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Ronald Moore · From: Mindoro, Wisconsin, USA

I lower the secong string a whole tone along with the fourth and eighth string lower. When playing in B6th mode, that gives me the equivalent of the top string D on a C 6th neck. The first string F# gives me the equivalent of a top string G on a C 6th neck. You have the best of both worlds with this rig. Ron

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Ron, since you have them combined, perhaps you could tell me if I'm wrong, but doesn't putting them together make these combos hard or impossible?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdfmMfzvcI4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
I may be imagination deficient, but I don't see how you get them if they're on the same lever.
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Ronald Moore · From: Mindoro, Wisconsin, USA

Lane, The E to Eb lever is lowering 3 strings, both Es and 2nd string D# to C#. I have the half tone lower on another Knee along with the 9th string B up to D. The F# is the first string. I think this is basically Jeff Newman's setup for the Universal. When playing B6th mode, the knee lever is in (or locked in) so if you want the equivalent of C6th top string D, play string 2 or if you want the equivalent of C6th top string G, play string 1.
In answer to the rest of the original question, I use the B to Bb lever a lot in both E9th or B6th. Ron

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