Need advice on dealing with live sound disagreement

Ollin Landers · From: Willow Springs, NC

Our band seems to struggle with the same old issue. How to control stage volume and front of house. I have an ongoing disagreement with the guitar player. He wants to play too loud and doesn't seem to care about the overall sound (ego). We play mostly small venues and occasionally outdoors. We do not play in stadiums. The guitar player insist on using a 250W stereo rig into a 4x10 cab.

We all struggle with the onstage sound being able to hear everyone equally. My opinion is we should have a stage volume as low as possible and do our best to blend, then mic for front of house. When necessary in larger venues when we're spread out run a separate monitor mix for the instruments independent of the vocals.

I'm including parts of an email he sent today.

Quote >>>>

>We have tried mic'ing over and over. It will never work for the way we play, and (soundman) cannot possibly know what each of us wants to give to the audience. We need to leave (soundman) out of the musical instrument part.

>To get a big sound, more air has to be moved than is possible with a low stage volume and dinky amps

>No; we have tried the micing every time, with little success, and I'm so tired of it.
Let's make an adjustment. I will loan XXX and XXX each a 2 x 12 amp. The micing is our biggest downfall. Turn stage volume UP enough so that we can all get it.

Do we just need a new guitar player?
Am I the one with the wrong idea?

Any CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is solicited and welcomed.
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Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

I worked with one guitar player once who realized that he was too loud when he listened to a recording of the show. But if your guitar player is a jackass, he will listen and make some excuse about how the recording is not accurate. Then you will have to replace him.

Rich Gardner · From: Columbus, Ohio, USA

Sounds like you need a new guitar player.

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

Start looking for a new guitarist. He's never going to change his colors and you're all going to be frustrated without a resolve. Been there, done that.

Alvin Blaine · From: Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA

I think you need a sound engineer who can mix the FOH, and if the guitar player is over powering the band the soundman should ask him nicely to turn down. If he still is to loud, tell him to turn down. If he is still to loud demand he turn down or find another gig.

It would be better to have a good soundman mix the band and handle stage volume(telling band members to turn down).
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

You really shouldn't post the same thread in multiple section. Hopefully a moderator will merge the two threads. I think Music is the place for this discussion, but that's their call.

There are always advantages and disadvantages to mic'ing amps, or not. You also haven't said the venue type, but I'm assuming you're talking about a small club. IMO, unless you're playing very loud rock/metal/whatever in an underground dive where people expect a wall-of-sound din and massive standing waves caused by 100+ dB over ambient sound levels, a guitar player with a 250-watt amp in a small club setting is insane. A 20-50 watt tube amp for guitar gives tons of volume unless the rhythm section is insanely loud. If that's not enough to project to the audience on its own, it needs to be mic'd.

As Earnest says, by all means listen to a decent room recording. But if nobody can hear anything onstage because everything is so damned loud, the front-of-house sound isn't the only or even the main issue. But IMO, you need to make allies of the other members of the band and then put it to the guitar player - get with the program or get out. You trying to dictate this on your own without building support from the rest of the band may simply lead to people picking sides and a fractious disagreement.

My experience is that this type of disagreement is often band-killing - my take is that a lot of musicians don't like talking about this kind of stuff rationally. Go ahead and stone me, I have my flame suit on - but that's my opinion. But it's worth a try to fix it. I am a guitar player - I am not even always a quiet guitar player at all - and I would simply walk out on a band with a guitarist pushing the hell out of a 250-watt amp of any kind in a small club if they didn't agree to change it. Hell, pushing an 85-100 watt Twin Reverb is too much in any small club I play - the management would tell us to turn down in the first 30 seconds, and that would be the end of that gig.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I'd say make a FOH tape.
Let it speak for itself.
(Tim, it's headroom, not volume, that drove me to the Super)
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Scott Appleton · From: Ashland, Oregon

everyone miked everyone as low as possible if that means a 15 watt tube guitar amp and a 200w solid state steel amp then that is what it should be .. everyone at equal volume so every 0ne can hear each other .. the vocals should be the loudest part of any mix. if the guitarist cant live with that get a new one.

Nathan Golub · From: Durham, NC

Hey Ollin, I see you're in my neck of the woods. What venues are you guys playing? Most bands I've played with around here can get away fine with low-to-moderate stage volume, regardless of the club. Just for reference I've never needed a steel amp any louder than a NV112 turned up a bit less than half-way. For a while I was carrying around an amp stand so I wouldn't have to rely on the monitor mix, but I got lazy and stopped using it.

In defense of the Traingle-area soundguys, I'm usually pretty impressed by how loud the FOH volume is in the local clubs, regardless of stage volume. And aside from the Cave, I don't know of any clubs that will let you get away with not mic'ing the drums & amps.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I usually say stuff like...

Here's the deal... Nobody should hear you louder than you hear you. What this means is... You need to aim your amp at your upper body so you hear and feel most of the volume coming out of it.

Nobody should need to wear earplugs to listen to our band.

Nobody should go to bed with a ringing in their ears after hearing our band.

Brad Sarno · From: St. Louis, MO USA

Fire the guitarist.

35 watts is pretty much as loud as a guitarist should need. 50 watts is pushing it. Players with 80 watt Twins better be very tasteful with how they use it. 250 watts and using it is just obscene. Even on gigantic hockey-dome stage concerts, that's too loud for a band and is so loud that the house will struggle to mix it.

The guy really needs a 22 watt amp like a Fender Deluxe Reverb or similar.

Fire the guy. He's ruining it for everyone, especially the audience.

B

Daniel Morris · From: Westlake, Ohio, USA

As mentioned in the companion post, get a new guitar player.
Better yet, tell the guitarist - if he's good - he needs to become a musician.
250W tube amp??!! "What, can't hear ya!!!!"
One of my bands has a loud drummer; he's VERY good, and can bring things down when needed, but when we're cookin', he's LOUD. Naturally that affects our stage volume, but guitarists CAN turn the amp down.
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Sidney Malone · From: Buna, TX

I think you need a band leader who knows how to resolve these things. If you don't have someone in charge who can take care of these issues it is going to be a very frustrating ride!!

As for my opinion on this situation....stage sound low enough so that the sound man can do his job. If somebody won't turn down.....BYE!!
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Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I tried to explain how loud on stage vol makes problems worse as volume increases. Out of tune-ness increases with volume. Muddiness increases, off pitch vocals or steel is exasperated as volume increases. To no avail of course.
I finally put in my notice to quit and things came down and improved some. We still struggle at times but as we have better nights sounding better I believe it is slowly sinking in.
I guess they know I would be hard to replace.. no one is silly enough to take my job.
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Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

There's a lot we don't know about the band hierarchy,so there may or may not be a person who has the authority to tell your six-stringer to shut up.It might seem from the email quote that there isn't,and that your too-loud guitarist won't pay attention to anyone else's input anyway.The bit about "the soundman cannot possibly know what each of us wants to give the audience" is too precious for words.He's right about moving a lot of air,but that's what the mains are for and it is beyond dumb to drive any but the tiniest room with stage amps.All you get is mud.

It might be theoretically possible to get this player to invest in a good set of in-ear monitors and give him his own personal guitar-heavy mix so he's happy and his amp can stay below lethal SPL's for everyone else,but I have the sense our six-string buddy might consider it a demotion if he's not the loudest guy in the room.Could be a little less labor-intensive just to start looking for another gig. Idea

EDIT:How do the other band members feel about the volume issue?

Scott Malchow · From: Minnesota, USA

It's obvious your guy is clueless about how to work with other musicians, blend in a band musically, and work with a good FOH engineer.

Because of this, your band will go nowhere.
Why punish an audience and each other sonically?

Might as well part ways with him. Life is too short-
Find musicians who care.

If you can't fire him, everyone else can leave and start a new thing.....(' Laughing

')
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Scott Malchow · From: Minnesota, USA

I really didn't hit submit more than once...
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Scott Malchow · From: Minnesota, USA

deleted
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In a time of drastic change it is the learners who inherit the future. The learned usually find themselves equipped to live in a world that no longer exists.
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Tim Marcus · From: San Francisco, CA

Chris Garner · From: Alabama, USA

A couple of weeks ago, I played electric guitar at a rather large venue (could seat a thousand people). I used a 22 watt Fender Deluxe Reverb. I used a kickback stand and didn't get my amp above 3. The amp was mic'ed, and with the PA was plenty loud enough to fill the place. With a proper PA, big high watt guitar amps and cabinets are not necessary for any venue. IMHO

It sounds like your guitarist has had negative experiences with soundmen not knowing the songs or when to adjust the faders (for lead breaks, etc.). If you like your band situation, maybe your band could pay an experienced soundman to run sound at your shows, or you could train a soundman who could attend practices and know your songs and what to adjust. Maybe that would give the confidence to run stage volume lower. Just another option.

Steve Collins · From: Alaska, USA

You could give him the benefit of the doubt, and ask him to have his hearing checked. If he has always been into the high volume thing chances are he has hearing damage, and may be compensating by turning up enough to hear himself loud and strong (sense the vicious cycle here?)

I had a drummer once with bad ears, he just couldn't tell how loud he was in comparison to the band, and didn't seem to care. I would put a sp meter on him during sound check, just to show him how out of control he was, pushing 100-110 db before the band even got going, ridiculous. He was fired.

mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Whenever I hear the words "250 watt stereo rig guitar player" I reach for my craigslist musicians wanted section.......

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Ollin Landers · From: Willow Springs, NC

Thanks to all that responded. All the comments are just about what I expected to hear.

As a follow up.......

The guitar player has been asked many many times to turn down and blend better. He does and when he does the obvious result is the band sounds pretty good.

The issue is the next day he starts complaining again and trying to find ways that allow him and the rest of the band to "crank it up".

We do have a very adequate PA and a soundman that may not be very experienced but does know at least what not to do.

I don't think anyone is going to ask him to leave. We're just a bunch of guys that enjoy playing and get a gig about once a month. But still I don't need the frustration.

Problem is I do get to play a lot of steel with this band and we do older classic country. I guess I need to maybe shut up and let things blow over until the next time or vote with my feet and look for another gig.
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Zum SD-12 Black, Zum SD-12 Burly Elm Several B-Bender Tele's and a lot of other gear I can't play.

I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted. W.C. Fields

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

In that case, since it's mostly fun, I'd keep my eyes open for a more rewarding band, and til you find one, heed the wisdom of Frank Z, who said "shut up and play yer guitar."
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