U12 copedent

Alan Bidmade · From: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

The standard set-up for U12s seems to be 7 pedals and 5 levers...
I was looking at the Williams Guitar Company copedent and noted they have E's (raise and lower) on RKs. Is this 'standard' - and do players make a successful transition from standard 'Emmons' E9 set up with E's on LK?
Is the change of knees necessary to accommodate those changes the U12 guitar offers over and above E9?
_________________
Ben-Rom #017 'Lorelei', Guild D25, Epiphone 'Joe Pass', Roland 40XL, Hilton VP

First name Alan, but known as Nick

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Alan,

There is not really a "standard" for U12 with where the levers that raise and lower E's (I will call them F and E levers respectively). If you are going to lock them for B6 then it does not matter much where you put them - whatever you are use to. If you want to play it in the "one big tuning" (aka "unified") mode, then it gets a bit more complicated. I've seen more Uni copeds that put them on LK than on RK, almost always with an Emmons arrangement of ABC pedals and E and F levers. The problem then is you have to hold your LKR lever over when in the B6 mode. You can access the pedals, but your leg is a bit constrained. Many do not have a problem with this, but I found it made hitting the correct pedals quickly and cleanly a bit tough compared to when I locked the E-lever in and moved my leg over directly above the B6 pedals.

In theory, I like the Bb6 guys idea - tune the guitar with the E's (well, in their case, Eb's) already lowered, so you are in 6th mode open, and then raise them up a full stop with a half-stop in between. I think RKL is most common for this, but could be another one). You then have to hold that lever at the half-stop to play E9-style licks, engaging it for the full raise when the F-lever would normally be used, and releasing it when the E-lever would be normally used. As I say - in theory, I like it, and have considered trying it. But I'm not sure I'm up to holding a 1/2-stop while operating a volume-pedal with the same leg. If I try it, I won't do it in Bb6, but in B6 - no sense confusing my brain by moving all the positions one fret!

I do think, if you are using separate levers to raise and lower E's (i.e., you are in E9th open, and get the 6th mode lowering E's), and want to play "unified", then the E and F levers should both be on the same knee as you will need two other levers for the B6 mode - one to lower the B to Bb - a standard C6 lever. And one to lower the 2nd string to C# - not REQUIRED, but most C6 players use a D on top, and most Uni players want a C# equivalent. Both of those levers need to be on whatever knee is NOT holding the E-lever. So, that occupies the other knee, so the only place left for the F-lever is the same knee, opposite direction as the E lever, at least with a 7x5. If you are willing to skip the C# on string 2, then you can split the E and F to different strings. You already have the F# on string 1 - equivalent to the more traditional C6 tuning that used a G on top - Herby Wallace played that tuning, as others still do.

All the various tunings and pedal arrangements have been pretty thoroughly discussed in the past if you search. There is one mega-thread on Universal tuning. Also, some of this was discussed just recently in this thread:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=251852
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental!

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Doug, AFAIK, only John Alexander and I (it's his idea, I just stole it, and talk about it because I'm a motormouthed nerd) combine the two levers.
I happen to think it's a great idea, and the only drawbacks are:
1) RKR is gonna have to be dedicated to a 6th only change (it's a great place for the standard C6 P5, since it often gets combined with P7), and;
2) it can take up to a week and a half to get used to holding the lever on a half stop for the E9 pockets (I found it easy to forget, but the ears provide a quick reminder).
(Here's my ridiculous setup, I decided I didn't wanna give up any of my added pulls just because I went to Uni: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=227309 but you don't need this much)
Alan, it's not gonna add much difficulty learning to move your knees around when you add two strings, because it's a whole 'nother guitar.
I've seen Unis with the D# lever in LKR, RKL and RKR.
People can make any switch they're determined to make and adapt to.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Alan Bidmade · From: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Thanks guys!
I am still very much in E9 mode, but thinking of a new guitar - one that will entertain me and sustain me for the rest of my life - (I'm a 60+ once-been guitarist with 'trigger finger' which makes palm blocking a bit of a problem - I 'tuck' my right ring finger under [ouch] and can't get it out again [ouch ouch!!])
However, I have a pretty good 'ear'.
Douglas's reply fills me with fear(' Whoa!

'), whilst Lane's is a little more 'user-friendly(' Confused

')' - but it does all sound a step too far. I have begun to think in E9 and think I might settle for an E9 4+5 and just get better at thinking and playing 'outside the box'.
_________________
Ben-Rom #017 'Lorelei', Guild D25, Epiphone 'Joe Pass', Roland 40XL, Hilton VP

First name Alan, but known as Nick

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Hello Al, how are you matey...
One of the advantages of lowering the E's on the RKL and raising them on the LKL is the fact that you don't have to dance as much with your left knee when doing quick moves that immediately follow each other. (I think Lloyd Green did this LKL RKL)...There are of course dis-advantages they say and some say it's better on same knee, and more efficient.
I tried it but found it too much garbling with the left side of the brain for my knee to obey commands and seemed a lot of taxing 'left' knee work.

Sorry Al, i diden't see the U12 until now...I hope what i said refers to your question.
_________________
A.K.A Chappy.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

It's completely subjective. Set the guitar up however you prefer.

I switched my E lowers to the right knee for a while, and decided I preferred them on the left and put them back. That's my preference. It's not a standard, or "the right way" or anything like that, just the way I like it.

There is no right or wrong way to set up the knee levers. The choice of which lever goes where is as personal as the choice of the color of the guitar.

However having said that, I must also say I believe that there is one exception to that rule. In my opinion, the vertical should raise the 1st and 7th strings from F# to G (natural, not sharp.) A lot of players put the B to Bb change in the vertical. In my opinion, this is a mistake, and the change belongs on a regular knee lever, on the opposite knee that lowers the E strings.

I hate half stops, and don't have any on my guitars. That means having an extra knee lever (as well as the infamous wrist lever.) Again, this is strictly a matter of personal preference.

Here's my setup. The B6 pedals have been rearranged, Pedal 5, which is the B6 D pedal, can also function as an E9 pedal, although it's not as useful as I thought it would be. The RKR takes the place of the B6 C pedal.

_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Sandro Rocco · From: St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada

This is the one I use on my MSA U12. I love it:

http://b0b.com/tunings/baucum.htm

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Alan,
My intention was not to strike fear! You may have more experience that I - I am just now coming up on two years of playing. What is difficult now might seem cake in another two years. It is true, though, that Uni seems even less standardized than E9 and C6 (at least the basic guitars) on the pulls. So, it means choosing one and going for it. I'd say if you are use to having the E raise and lower on left knee, start there and see how it works for you.

There was a recent post discussing U-12 vs. just getting a better E9 - it's probably on the first page of posts in Pedal Steel. And what it comes down to is the sound you want. If you love that C6/B6 sound, then you may want to think about a D-10 or Uni (or even a stand-alone C6, as a recent forum member was discussing).

If you decide you love the C6 sound and style of play and want to learn, it does not have to be immediate - you can ease into it at a pace you feel comfortable at. I know, for me, I would not have been happy only playing E9 - my music tastes are too varied. I have no regrets about buying a Uni, and probably spend more time in B6 mode than E9 mode. If, at some future point, I want to try tuning in 6th mode open, or a "unified" tuning again, it takes me about 15 to an hour to switch my guitar around, depending on how much I'm moving. If I decide it's not my cup of tea, I can switch it back. So, don't let me scare you off if you really want to learn to play 6th-style tunes.

Doug
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental!

Bob Simons · From: Kansas City, Mo, USA

I believe you are all missing the point of the U-12. It is not a clumsy surrogate of a 6th tuning, it is a unified instrument like a piano- capable of whatever harmonies you choose. From that point of view I would NEVER lock out the Eb. Just put E-Eb on RKR and your right leg is comfortably out of the way of the right side of the pedal board freeing your left leg to travel unrestricted,, and there is less strain in maintaining the E-Eb when it is useful. Even better- add the long Newman version of the LKV so it can be engaged from the right side as well.
_________________
Zumsteel U12 8-5, MSA M3 U12 9-7, MSA SS 10-string, 1930 National Resonophonic, Telonics Combo, Webb 614e, Fender Steel King, Mesa Boogie T-Verb.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

I've been playing E9/B6 uni since 1983. I have my E to Eb on my RKL, my E to F on LKL.I use RKR to get back that low 7th, step and a half, change thats an open string on the standard E9. I Use my LKR to flat my B's. I also have a LKV (vertical)that raises my first string a whole step.
With the acception of the vertical, this is how Maurice Anderson delivered my MSA.
I have no uncomfortable situations with this setup and can do all kinds of combos including pedals 1 and 2 combined with flating the B (LKR)to get a 4 minor.
My new Infinity has a locking Eb. I've tried using it while practicing a B6 style tune but I feel it's a bad habit as I'll never lock it during a performance - too limiting.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

The Lock makes a Universal more Universal.
If you have one, you can either use it or not use it.
If you don't have one, you can only not use it.
It increases the amount of options and possibilities that are available to the player.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic

All times are GMT - 8 Hours	Jump to: