Pulling the D# to E...what are the hook up options?

Ben Banville · From: Shelburne Falls, Massachusetts, USA

I want to hook up my D# string so it a raises to E. Where's the best place to connect the pull rod given my current copedent? One possible spot is hooking the second string up to the repurposed C pedal (now doing duty pulling F# strings to G#) which would give me a D# to E along with the F# to G#. What I'd LIKE even more is to hook up the D# to E so I can raise it separate from OR in conjunction with the F# to G#. Any help from all you experts out there would be greatly appreciated.

........LKL....LKV....LKR....A....B....C....D....RKL....RKR

F#...........................................G#.......................
D#...................................................................C#,D...
G#....................................A......................G.............
E.......F................Eb.......................................
B...............Bb..............C#.................A...................
G#....................................A............F#........G.............
F#...........................................G#.......................
E.......F................Eb.......................................
D....................................................................C#.....
B...............Bb..............C#.................A...................

P.S. the traditional Emmons change which was originally on the C pedal now resides on my RKL (two frets higher)

Sorry for the messy looking copedent, but this site doesn't do a very good job formatting
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BenRom pedal steel, 1963 Guild Starfire III, Gretsch 5120, S.A. Robelli Strat, Fender 1957 reissue Mex. Strat, Fender Highway One Tele, Schecter Jazz-6

"Ring the bells that still can ring
forget your perfect offering
there is a crack in everything
that's how the light gets in"...Leonard Cohen

Ain't nothing quite like hearin' that high lonesome bent sound!

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

If you would use some 2 string grips you could do away with the LV and RKL because you have the E-F change on your guitar. Put raising string 1 to G# and string 2 to E on the RKL. Put the standard changes back on P3.

Because you can get a minor here or there using a pedal without moving your bar does not mean you have to. You can learn to slide the bar up or back using fewer strings to achieve the same thing, opening up your tuning for different changes. The old guy in the front row with his head bowed will never know the difference. 10 steelers in a jam with notes flying all around, no one will know. A loud band or a really quiet church band, no one will know. Trust me we can find other ways.

If you have questions post here or call me.

Larry Behm
971-519-8533
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'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Planet Wave cables, Quilter 202 Toneblock, Telonics 15” speaker.

Phone: 971-219-8533

Larry Behm · From: Mt Angel, Or 97362

Ben thanks for the call, with your 40 years of guitar playing your ideas and concepts are working great for you. Anything to make it all make sense.

When I posted my reply to Ben I did not know if he was a 40 year player or a 1 week player who just got a guitar from a music store. Now I know.

Larry Behm
_________________
'70 D10 Black fatback Emmons PP, Hilton VP, BJS bars, Boss GE-7 for Dobro effect, Zoom MS50G, Planet Wave cables, Quilter 202 Toneblock, Telonics 15” speaker.

Phone: 971-219-8533

Ben Banville · From: Shelburne Falls, Massachusetts, USA

Hey Larry,

Great talking with you and taking a deeper look at some of the copedent possibilities...I appreciate the feedback.

Ben
_________________
BenRom pedal steel, 1963 Guild Starfire III, Gretsch 5120, S.A. Robelli Strat, Fender 1957 reissue Mex. Strat, Fender Highway One Tele, Schecter Jazz-6

"Ring the bells that still can ring
forget your perfect offering
there is a crack in everything
that's how the light gets in"...Leonard Cohen

Ain't nothing quite like hearin' that high lonesome bent sound!

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

To borrow from Mr. Sinkler, "it's not the note, but how you get there." Dropping 3 is not analogous to the B&C pedals. While the relationship remains the same on 3-6, you have a whole different relationship with 1,2 and 7.

I admit I wasn't privy to the discussion you had with Larry, but I like his original suggestion.
Or add that pull to your P3.
Bit I'd hate to give up the C pedal.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Lane is right. I have never been a fan of lowering 3 & 6 to G, and while it gives you the minor chord 2 frets up, the same as the B & C pedals, there is so much you can do with the C pedal as far as licks and movement that you can't get with the C pedal as you have it now (lowering 3 & 6). The purpose of the pedals isn't just to get different chords, unless all you plan to do is pad chords behind a singer, which I don't believe is what you want to do. They are also used for note movement. To expand on my saying that "it isn't the note, but how you get there" is "and what you can do with the note(s) when you get there". That is my argument when people say "why lower string 6 to F#? I have that note on string 7". Sure it is the same note, but there is so much neat movement you can get with string 6 between that lower and the raise on the B pedal that you can't get using string 7. Even raising string 7 to G# (the reverse of the change on string 6), you still lose the ability to move the string up to an A note. I actually had both those changes on the Williams I used to have, but ended up removing the raise to G# on 7 so I could put something else on instead. I know this is not a change you are considering, but it is a good illustration of the saying "it's not the note, but how you get there and what you can do with it once you get there".

To answer your original question, I would put the D# to E on the same pedal or lever as the F# to G# raise on string 1. I think you will find you will use those changes together more than separately.

Of course, it is your setup and you should set it up the way you want. But remember, there is a reason that the C pedal was put on the guitar and has become a standard during the evolution of the pedal steel guitar, and the G#'s to G has not (mostly due to lack of enough pedals and levers and more useful changes for the ones you do have).
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Ben Banville · From: Shelburne Falls, Massachusetts, USA

Thanks Lane and Richard for thought provoking responses. As we all know there is always something lost and something gained in ANY copedent change. Lane, it's true that "While the relationship remains the same on 3-6, you have a whole different relationship with 1,2 and 7." There is certainly something lost in re-assigning the C pedal, but what I HAVE gained is not without interest. I can add the A pedal to the 'G' lever minor chord change and get a Im6 or IV7 chord, OR flat the E's and get an augmented chord, meanwhile, pressing the A pedal in conjunction with flatting the E's produces a 7th chord. Also, when playing minor chords from the 'G' lever I can half pedal the F# to a G for additional voice movement. Whether this is more or less useful than what's available from the standard Emmons C Pedal setup isn't something I can fully document at the moment. For that, I would need to do further research into those songs exploring the more esoteric voice movement possibilities of the standard C Pedal. (of course, I don't know which songs these are) To really get to the bottom of it, a second steel guitar set up in standard tuning would be helpful. I'm currently working on that.

The real reason I have 'added' the 'G' lever is to create on the pedal steel an open minor chord in the SAME distance relationship to the open major chord that is found on 6 string guitar. It's important to me to have consistency in chord locations between the two instruments. Likewise, with the A+B pedals down, when I add the V lever I get the SAME spacial relationship for those minor chords as well. This has made the chord location universe more intuitive, bringing the two instruments more in line with one another. There are also innumerable two note harmony 'sequences' available using various grips running between the chord positions which provide fascinating ascending and descending harmony scales. It's such an amazing instrument to explore! Additionally, in the heat of jam sessions where songs are thrown at me without benefit of knowing the chord structures beforehand, instinctively knowing where the minor chords reside is invaluable.
_________________
BenRom pedal steel, 1963 Guild Starfire III, Gretsch 5120, S.A. Robelli Strat, Fender 1957 reissue Mex. Strat, Fender Highway One Tele, Schecter Jazz-6

"Ring the bells that still can ring
forget your perfect offering
there is a crack in everything
that's how the light gets in"...Leonard Cohen

Ain't nothing quite like hearin' that high lonesome bent sound!

Dan Galysh · From: Hendersonville, Tennessee, USA

Ben, I appreciate your open thinking concerning the chordal combinations with the G#s to Gs lever. I have a friend who is primarily a 6 string guitar player who has that lever change on a Pro I. He has told me that the change makes a lot of sense to him, as he visualizes it from a guitar player's standpoint, so you're not alone in that line of thinking. I have that change on several of my guitars.

Ben Banville · From: Shelburne Falls, Massachusetts, USA

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the response. It always warms my heart when I run across others who can appreciate the value of the G lever. Why should guitar players have to throw away the topological map when they take up the pedal steel. In a separate thread titled " The future of the steel " a few authors bemoan the 'fact' that pedal steel seems to be slowly disappearing from the musical landscape. From my point of view, it would appear that encouraging innovation regarding copedents would perhaps be ONE of the ways to entice more players to join the fold. But hey, I'm just a neophyte, it's entirely possible the more erudite scholars of the steel disagree with this approach. But think of it...wouldn't it be great to be able to say to them guitar slingers, "listen up, six string players, there are things you can do to make the transition from guitar to pedal steel easier." I would have loved that kind of support when I first started.
_________________
BenRom pedal steel, 1963 Guild Starfire III, Gretsch 5120, S.A. Robelli Strat, Fender 1957 reissue Mex. Strat, Fender Highway One Tele, Schecter Jazz-6

"Ring the bells that still can ring
forget your perfect offering
there is a crack in everything
that's how the light gets in"...Leonard Cohen

Ain't nothing quite like hearin' that high lonesome bent sound!

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