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Topic: Single neck C6 |
Alex Cattaneo
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 16 Sep 2013 8:09 pm |
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| Hey guys, if someone wanted a fully functional C6 set-up on a single neck steel, how many pedals and levers would be required? If anyone out there has a single neck C6, I'd certainly like to hear about it. |
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Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
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Posted 16 Sep 2013 8:12 pm
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| I've wanted a single with 5/5 for C6 for a long time. Soon as I find a bank with a leaky vault, I will spring for one. |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 16 Sep 2013 9:19 pm
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I think 5/1 would be the minimum pedals/levers for a C6. That was how my U12 Fessenden came from Mike Perlowin (with extra parts). Mickey Adams is now returning it to its original 8X5 E9/B6 Universal copedent.
Last edited by Clete Ritta on 16 Sep 2013 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fred Justice
From:
Mesa, Arizona
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Posted 16 Sep 2013 9:24 pm
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Here is a SD-10 C6 I built for a local Doctor, it has 5x5 and turned out really well.
_________________
Email: azpedalman@gmail.com
Phone: 480-235-8797 |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Sep 2013 3:36 am
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With all the double-footing required in 5 and 1, and the fact that folks now want a half step raise of both E and C, and many want to lower at least 1 A, I think 4 and 5 or 5 and 4 would make more sense, with P5 (the second C6 pedal) being rather important.
PS: That's purty, Fred.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jim Hollingsworth
From:
Way out West
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Posted 17 Sep 2013 8:20 pm
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My Rittenberry C6 universal has 7 pedals & 5 knee levers, but the first 2 pedals serve as E9 style pulls. So I guess you could say 5 & 5. But I REALLY like having those 2 E9 pedals on the guitar - it really broadens the guitars capabilities.
Jim |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 17 Sep 2013 8:48 pm
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I have a Sho-Bud D-10 coming my way to do a rehab on, and am pondering the setup now. Stealing an idea from Lane (thanks, Lane!) I am thinking I will put Pedal 7 (raises strings 3 + 4) on LKL (adding levers for C6). This frees up a pedal that I can use on E9 (Franklin, or something else) and I end up with 4x4 on C6, which is I think a very workable setup - more experienced minds might tell me if I am missing something here. I think that would provide a lot of C6 - more than the old standard of 5x1.
Certainly by putting ANY regular C6 pedal on a knee (my Uni has pedal 4 on a knee), then you can get by with 4 pedals and at least 2 levers, and still match the classic C6 setup. In a pinch, if you are wanting to adapt an existing steel you have just to get started and it only has 3 pedals, it might work to put pedals 4 and 7 on your Left Knees. You would get by with three pedals and at least 3 levers, I think. Again, the smarter minds feel free to correct me if I am leading him astray.
Doug
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 17 Sep 2013 9:53 pm
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First, P7 is Sinkler, not me. I put P5 on s lever
If I were getting a C6 S-10, I'd want 5&4 or 4&5 minimum, and prefer 5&5.
Since you brought up a conversion, if I had a 3&4 guitar, I'd convert it thusly:
P1: P6 (2 to F, 6to Eb)
P2: P7 (3 to D, 4 to D
P3: either 3&7 to C# or P8 (7 to C#, 9 to E and 10 to A)
LKL: 4&8 to B with half stop at Bb
LKR: P6 (5 and 9 to F#, 10 to D)
RKL: the one of those P3 options not chosen for the pedal
RKR: 3 to B
If there's an LKV, have it drop 4 to G# and 8 to G
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 17 Sep 2013 11:07 pm
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In that case, thanks Richard! Lane, I knew you had 5 on a lever, but in some post a while back you mentioned 7 on a lever, kind of as an aside, or alternative. I liked the idea, but there might be issues I am missing due to inexperience that that arise with that choice.
It's not clear from the original post exactly what Alex is seeking, or exactly what "fully functional" means. I take it to mean at least the old standard that was achieved with 5 pedals and one lever. Many, of course, load them up with much more these days. Also, does he want a fairly standard layout that he use published instruction to learn from, or is he more willing to venture into newer waters? I think the S-10 conversion ideas are worth tossing out - some people might have an extra S-10 around, and it might spark some interest. Probably the best advice I can give is: Pay more attention to Lane's suggestions than mine. He knows what he is talking about!
Doug
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 18 Sep 2013 1:03 am
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5X1 is the minimum that was "fully functional" for Day. Most others have at least 4 or 5 levers which are well, more fully functional. 
My D10 is 8X7, split 4X5 on E9, and 4X4 on C6 (2 center levers and the RKL and RKR work on both necks).
Last edited by Clete Ritta on 18 Sep 2013 1:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 18 Sep 2013 1:09 am
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Amen, Clete.
I took "fully functional" to mean "will this guitar allow me to play what's in the most common instructional materials?"
5&1 passes that test.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 18 Sep 2013 5:27 am
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| 5+5. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 18 Sep 2013 9:49 am
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Yes, I have both P7 and P8 on levers. My choice of where to put the P7 lever would be the right knee. If I could go back in time, I might do what Lane did and put P5 on my right knee. The other choice would be P6 on a knee. There are some quick moves on P7 that are a pain to get on a knee lever, although it can be done.
I really love my P8 being on my LKL. Even though I used to have it on P4 so I didn't have to move my foot from P5 to P8 when playing a 1 to 4 chord, I find it easier and smoother to be able to let off P5 and hit the LKL or vice versa. When I am on the LKL, my foot is right at P5. I can move the 10th string from A to D with no hiccups on the way like there would be when letting up on one pedal and moving the foot to another. This is the reason many give for have the E to F lever and E to D# levers on E9th on different knees.
Anyway, I could easily live with a single 10 with 3 pedal and 4 or 5 levers made into a C6th guitar. It's easy to find used S10's with this configuration, although you might need additional parts as most pedals/levers on E9 pull only 2 strings at most (except maybe the Franklin pedal), and 2 pedals on C6th pull 3 strings.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Alex Cattaneo
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 18 Sep 2013 7:47 pm
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What about those Emmons guitars that use to ship with 5 or 6 pedals and one knee? Were they C6 guitars? I've never played C6 on a pedal steel, only on a console, so most of what you guys are suggesting is like Arameic to me, but it's interesting to see how the word "basic" is different for everyone. I guess my original question came from the fact that I sometimes see used steel with only a couple of levers going for cheap, and I was thinking, wouldn't these be great for a C6 single neck, instead of adding levers to make them contemporary E9 guitars? I think the particular guitar was an MSA lacquer guitar Al Vesel was selling on eBay, 4 pedals and 2 knees if I'm not mistaken. I guess I wasn't aware that the C6 requires so much hardware.
Another way to put it would be, what would be the equivalent of a basic 3x4 set-up on C6? I guess Clete answered that already. |
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Alex Cattaneo
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 18 Sep 2013 7:54 pm
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| To further explain what I'm after, I guess being able to play classic C6 stuff, some jazz, some western swing, some Hawaiian, and learn with the available instructionnal material that's out there. Being able to do the classic stuff Buddy Emmons did on C6 (Ray Price, Ernest Tubb, nothing crazy), all the way to, perhaps, All My Exes Live In Texas, you know, basic classic C6 stuff. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 18 Sep 2013 8:51 pm
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OK, Cliff's notes version, SIMPLE C6 for conversion of a single neck.
Maverick style (3 pedals of raises, lowers only on one knee)
P1 raises 8 to Bb
P2 raises 2 to F
P3 raises 3 to D and 4 to B
K lowers 6 to Eb
I don't like that, too stripped down
3 pedals and 4 or 5 knees?
As I suggested above
P1 standard P6, 2 to F and 6 to Eb
P2: P7: 3 to D and 4 to B
P3, either 3 and 7 raise to C# or P8: 7 to C#, 9 to E and 10 to A
LKL, the standard P4: 4 and 8 to B, you'd benefit from a half stop at Bb
LKR: P5, 5 and 9 to F#, 10 to D
RKL, the other option from P3
RKR, lower 3 to B
If there's a vertical, lower the As: I recommend 4 to G# and 8 to G.
If you're playing lap/console steel, you probably already use corner slants to drop the E and G, but not at the same time. Pedals 5 and 6 do this for you, plus additional pulls that complement those two moves:
I'm not positive, but I bet those were Buddy's starting points for the first C6 pedals
To descramble the Aramaic,
P5 turns C6 into a D9th.
P6 turns C6 into F7. P7 alone turns C6 into GMaj7with a 13th, add P6 and you get G7 (with a sharp 5 on string 6)
P6 and P5 give you F#dim
P8 gives you A7 with a sharp 9.
P4 turns C6 into CMaj7.
You can play the standard IV/#IVdim/I/VI/II/V/I turnaround on the home fret:
P6/P5&6/straight/ P8/ P5/P6 & P7 and straight.
The E9th changes are all about diatonic scales and almost classical harmonies (Hence M. Perlowin calling it "The Mozart neck"), the C6 changes are all about chord building.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ken Pippus
From:
Langford, BC, Canada
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Posted 10 Jan 2014 11:47 pm
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| So, Jim Hollingsworth's post has me intrigued. What would everybody add if they could have two more pedals and cover "commercial country" sounds, whatever that means currently? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 11 Jan 2014 12:06 am
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To get most country stuff, add a lever to raise 2 and 6 to F, and an A pedal raising 3 and 7 to D and a B pedal raising 3 and 7 to Bb. So you have a (7thless) F9th, with the A and B pedals taking you to Bb. You might wanna drop 3 AND 7 with the standard C-B lever.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ulrich Sinn
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Jan 2014 11:02 pm
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How about the Maurice Anderson Universal tuning?
Seems to do all that... |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 2:17 am
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The Bb6 lacks the C pedal and F lever, unless you add stuff to it.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 1:56 pm
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The knee levers create the C pedal voicing, basically. The F lever doesn't exist. Seems like you can live without it, but I'm a very basic player in that genre, on steel
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 2:12 pm
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Christopher, dropping the Gs (in your case) and moving up two frets isn't the same thing, since the relations between the adjacent strings changes. If you use the C pedal as a melodic device, you'd not want to give it up.
And David Wright and John Alexander have the equivalent of the F lever (probably my least used E9th lever)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Lee Warren
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 2:43 pm
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Fred: wow, that is a spectacularly beautiful guitar!
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Paddy Long
From:
Christchurch, New Zealand
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Posted 16 Jan 2014 2:52 pm
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For single neck C6th I think I would prefer the pedals to be more in a central position to make double footing a little easier... you don't want to have to leap off the volume pedal and move your right foot too far to the left... I would need at least 5 and 5.
_________________
14'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
08'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
94' Franklin Stereo D10 9+8
Telonics, Peterson, Steelers Choice, Benado, Lexicon, Red Dirt Cases. |
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