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Topic: Tempered Tuning |
Gary Cooper
From:
Atmore, Alabama
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 2:41 am |
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| Would someone please explain what is tempered tuning. Thank you |
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Scott Duckworth
From:
Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 2:51 am
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Tempered tuning involves the deliberate use of such minor adjustments (accepting the related destabilization) to enable musical possibilities that are impractical using just intonation. The most widely known example of this is the use of equal temperament to address problems of older temperaments, allowing for consistent tuning of keyboard and fretted instruments and enabling musical composition in, and modulation among, the various keys.
_________________
Amateur Radio Operator NA4IT (Extra)
http://www.qsl.net/na4it
I may, in fact, be nuts. However, I am screwed onto the right bolt... Jesus! |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 6:24 am
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Scott, you're close. Steel pickers use "tempered tuning" to describe variations from the standard keyboard tuning (called "Even Tempered" or ET) to make the notes sound sweet.
The pitches of notes in a chord have a mathematical relation to each other (the 5th is 3:2 and the major third is 5:4 in relation to the root, this is called "Just Intonation"), but the mathematical purity gets lost trying to make everything work in every key. So several centuries ago, folks figured out a compromise for keyboards and fretted instruments wherein every interval was a little off, so that none would be dreadful: before that, a harpsichord tuned to the key of A would be close in D or E, but useless in C, for instance.
The steel, with its capability to have multiple tunings at the press of a pedal, and to put the bar just ahead of or behind a fret, can restore the mathematical purity to ALL the chords you play.
Steel players call that "tempered", even if it's returning to JI.
If you ask me (and some other players), this is a little unwise, because only fiddlers, trombonists, vocalists and the odd slide whistle player can also play in JI. This means that if we sweeten our thirds (which sound great by ourselves, not denying that), as soon as we add the keys, or the Tele, or some other cat, we now have competing thirds (and very slightly off fifths).
BTW, if you play 6string, you can observe the difference between ET and JI by tuning your guitar E to a tuner, and the rest by harmonics: now check your tuning with a tuner (programmed to ET). You'll find that your A is slightly flat, your D is slightly flatter than that, your G is slightly flatter than that, and your B is even more flatter than that, and that it's markedly off to the high E.
Because harmonics are JI.
You'll notice that, if you have a smartphone and paid for Cleartune (a wonderful app, worth the 4 bucks), if you scroll down to temperaments, it offers approximately three squillion possibilities other than ET, and none of them are Newman or Emmons (unless there's been an upgrade I don't know of)
Unless you're ready to enter a whole world of musicgeek debate, just stick with ET or Newman (or Emmons).
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 6:47 am
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 7:00 am
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| Scott Duckworth wrote: |
| Tempered tuning involves the deliberate use of such minor adjustments (accepting the related destabilization) to enable musical possibilities that are impractical using just intonation. The most widely known example of this is the use of equal temperament to address problems of older temperaments, allowing for consistent tuning of keyboard and fretted instruments and enabling musical composition in, and modulation among, the various keys. |
| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Scott, you're close. Steel pickers use "tempered tuning" to describe variations from the standard keyboard tuning (called "Even Tempered" or ET) to make the notes sound sweet. |
Well, Scott isn't actually close; he's exactly right. But Lane's statement is also true: unfortunately, steel guitarists misuse the term "tempered" so widely that there's probably no hope of bringing their terminology in line with the rest of the world. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 7:10 am
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Right you are, Brint. But ever since Jeff came out with his "tempered tuning" (really closer to JI), the steel world has so widely misused the term, it's almost like the British vs. American "tabling" a discussion. We use the terms as antonyms of each other.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 7:43 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Scott, you're close. Steel pickers use "tempered tuning" to describe variations from the standard keyboard tuning (called "Even Tempered" or ET) to make the notes sound sweet. |
ET stands for Equal Temperment, a special case of meantone temperament where all 12 intervals are equal to 100 cents. It's most obvious (and obnoxious) use is in electronic keyboards.
People say that steel players use Just Intonation (JI) and mistakenly call it "tempered". In reality, it's nearly impossible to tune a pedal steel perfectly to JI. Most of us do, in fact, use a slightly tempered tuning. We try to tune to the beatless "just" intervals, but the physical characteristics of of the instrument make it very difficult to reach that ideal.
The difference between JI and ET is most noticeable on the major 3rd intervals (E to G#, A to C#, etc.). The pure JI harmony is 386.3 cents and the ET harmony is 400 cents. Any interval between those two values will be interpreted as an in-tune major 3rd by listeners, but the harmony sounds "smoother" when it's closer to the JI tuning.
Most instruments can't play JI chords. It's one of the subtle components of the steel guitar's unique appeal. See www.b0b.com/infoedu/just_e9.html for technical details.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 7:51 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
Unless you're ready to enter a whole world of musicgeek debate, just stick with ET or Newman (or Emmons). |
See what I mean, Gary?
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 7:51 am
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| in the case of steel guitar this can be a personal approach. i have finally settled on the ill-tempered tuning to blend with my personality and it seems to work in all situations. |
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Gary Dunn
From:
near Camel City, NC
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 9:34 am
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| chris ivey wrote: |
| in the case of steel guitar this can be a personal approach. i have finally settled on the ill-tempered tuning to blend with my personality and it seems to work in all situations. |
Now this is funny...  |
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Michael Hummel
From:
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 9:42 am
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I've often wanted to suggest that Chris is "ill-tempered"....but as long as he is inclined to think that himself, I'm okay with it!
_________________
MSA Classic 5+4
Too many 6-strings and amps to list |
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Gary Cooper
From:
Atmore, Alabama
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 12:42 pm Tempered Tuning
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| Scott, Thank you for your response. How does one 'properly' tune the PSG -- Hal Leonard book by Johnie Helms states "the first string, F#, is tuned approximately seven cents SHARP (the acutal pitch is around 743.05 cycles per second." Helms further states the first string should be 441.5 i.e. the distance the string would be tuned away from A440. ???? Is that confusing to anyone? Sting 2, D#, would be tuned 439 away from A440. I am opened for a learning experience. Thank you, Gary Cooper |
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Gary Cooper
From:
Atmore, Alabama
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 12:47 pm Tempered Tuning
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| Lane, THANK YOU. This concept is becoming a "little" clearer, but being a 6 string guitar player, A440, was the standard by which I tuned my instrument. But what I have read so far, the A440, may not be right. THANK YOU, Gary Cooper |
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Gary Cooper
From:
Atmore, Alabama
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 12:49 pm Tempered Tuning
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| Lane, what kind of tuner do you use? Thanks, Gary |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 12:55 pm
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Discussing the deviation in Hertz deviation from 440 only makes sense to the people (fairly few) whose tuners have markings under the needle calibrated in Hertz deviation from 440. Most tuners I've owned deal in either cents or actual frequency, and you cannot have a 441 E, as that's an A.
Most folks discuss deviation in cents.
Here's the Emmons chart:
www.buddyemmons.com/ttchart.htm
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 12:57 pm
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Yeah I'm with Chris - except I call it dis-temperment. My personal approach is once a year or so, get my dis-temperment shot.
_________________
Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 1:00 pm
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I use Cleartune, a smartphone app.
my last tuner before that died a few years ago, & I would just get a reference tone on the web, from www.harmonize.com/metropolis/online_pitch_pipe.htm I believe, or get an E from the guitar player.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
Last edited by Lane Gray on 9 Sep 2013 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gary Cooper
From:
Atmore, Alabama
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 1:13 pm Tempered Tuning
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| Lane, thank you very much. Excellent!! Gary |
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John Peay
From:
Cumming, Georgia USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 1:31 pm
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Gary,
As if you didn't already have enough material to wade through, here's more...
Great explanation on Larry Bell's site about "what is JI vs. ET"
http://www.larrybell.org/id29.htm
Also a good "hybrid" tuning method to use for your guitar (somewhere in between ET and JI). I've found that something along this line works for me:
http://www.larrybell.org/id32.htm
Good luck, have fun, and as Larry says on his page "don't obsess over tuning", ha! |
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Dennis Wood
From:
Savannah, TN USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 1:33 pm
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twist the keys until it sounds right, don't play while the singer is singing and everything will be ok.
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auribus teneo lupum |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 1:41 pm
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| Dennis Wood wrote: |
| twist the keys until it sounds right... |
Says the guy with two keyless guitars
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Robert Harrington
From:
Connecticutt, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 2:13 pm Paul Franklin Pedal and F# to G# Lever
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| Does anyone happen to know the offsets Paul Franklin uses (or any one else for that matter) for the B to A (5th string) and G# to F# (6th String) on the Franklin Pedal and the F# to G# raises he uses on his RKR? Based on my observations, the offset seems to be different for the same note depending on whether it is acheived by a raise or a lower from an open sring. String gauge seems to have a role in this as well. I use the Newman offsets on my Franklin U-12, but I also have these two Franklin changes on my new Williams U-12 as well with no clue as to how to tune them to anything other than 440. In the end I think I am going to find that it is probably a matter of personal taste and what the physical characteriztics of your instrument, but it is nice to have a starting point. BTW, I think Williams builds a very fine instrument, especially for the money, and I have owned and played Sho-Bud, Mullen, Franklin and Carter. All good instruments, but I like the Williams best of all. |
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Robert Harrington
From:
Connecticutt, USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 2:18 pm Emmons Chart
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| Lane: Thanks for the Emmons Chart. It looks radically different from what Newman published which probably makes my point that it probably more a matter or personal taste and your guitar than anything else. As Tommy White preaches, do what works for you. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 9 Sep 2013 2:47 pm
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Robert, I find cabinet drop and personal taste drastically effect offsets.
My personal recommendation (and my practice):
Tune your guitar BY EAR (whether you put your Es at 0 or +8 [442 equivalent] is up to you), THREE TIMES, writing down the offsets that please your ears.
Program those into your tuner.
If you own multiple guitars, don't let it surprise you if each guitar has different values.
If the 1st and 2nd string raises have different values than the 3rd and 4th string open numbers, that should be cabinet drop: those notes end up unison with 3 and 4.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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