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Topic: Why are 12 strings not popular |
Christopher Lippincott
From:
Nashville, TN USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 10:59 am |
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I am curious as to why more people do not play 12 string, mainly ext. e9th, guitars. It seems only advantageous to me having the lower strings.
Though, I have heard that 12 string guitars are harder to build, often have less sustain, and generally don't sound as good as 10 strings.
Does this prove to be true? What is your take on S-12 guitars? |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 11:19 am Re: Why are 12 strings not popular
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| Christopher Lippincott wrote: |
I am curious as to why more people do not play 12 string, mainly ext. e9th, guitars. It seems only advantageous to me having the lower strings.
Though, I have heard that 12 string guitars are harder to build, often have less sustain, and generally don't sound as good as 10 strings.
Does this prove to be true? What is your take on S-12 guitars? |
Not sure I can agree with anything in your post. While S12's are not as "popular" as and S10 or D10, there are still plenty out there.
Let's go one by one here. I also believe having the lower strings on an E9th ext tuning would be advantageous. But realistically, in a live situation, those lower notes COULD get lost in the mix. I have heard that happen even on a 10 string E9 on the lower strings.
Harder to build? If a builder has the tooling to build a 12 string, I don't see where it would be harder to build. If the builder doesn't normally offer a 12 string guitar, it could be difficult, but he would probably tell you he doesn't build one and send you on your way to another builder that does.
I have heard comments over the years that single necks don't have the sustain of a double neck guitar. Don't know if that is true or not. I have sat at some single 10's and 12's that had as much sustain as any D10 I have sat at. Having a single 12 on a double body might help that out if it is true.
A 12 string guitar doesn't sound as good as a 10 string guitar? I have heard MANY 12 stringers that sound every bit as good as a 10 string guitar. If it was a comparison between an S10 and S12 of the same brand, same vintage (say it was just built), I am not sure would be able to tell the difference in a blind test (making sure the 11th and 12th strings were not played).
This is of course only my opinion after 42 years of playing. A lot of us older players (before 12's really became popular), we have D10's and just don't want to give up the dedicated C6th neck. Back in those early days, I had only heard of a couple people playing Universal guitars, and they were Bb6th guitars (ala Maurice Anderson). By the time I finally heard of 12 string E9 universals, I was already knee deep in playing D10's. If I was just starting out today, I would definitely condider a U12 Uni.
EDITED TO ADD: I would love to have a D12 guitar at this point.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Calvin Walley
From:
colorado city colorado, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 12:00 pm
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simple answer :
most simply don't need 12 strings for the kind of music that they like to play
_________________
proud parent of a sailor
Mullen SD-10 /nashville 400
gotta love a Mullen!!!
Guitars that i have owned in order are :
Mullen SD-10,Simmons SD-10,Mullen SD-10,Zum stage one,Carter starter,
Sho-Bud Mavrick |
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Rick Nicklas
From:
Verona, Mo. (deceased)
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 12:39 pm
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| Christopher, If you are really curious then you should go out of your way to try one out at a jam session, convention or get-together of some kind where they would be present. That's what I did and I found it to feel very natural and a better tuning for me because I don't like the low D string present unless I engage a lever (that's the way mine is set up (like an extended E9th without the lower D string). Just try one, it's the best way to satisfy your curiosity. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 1:49 pm
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I, myself, would keep the 9th string at D (just personal preference as I use it too much to have to worry about using a pedal or lever to get the D note). But it does get in the way if you want to strum or play "power chords" on the lower strings. So does the 7th string at F#. So, I have a "zero" pedal on my guitar (I play a 10 string) that raises string 9 up to an E and string 7 to a G#. That allows me to strum, and grab certain groups of strings all the way up, excluding strings 1 & 2, although my lever that raises 1 to G# and 2 to E would make all 10 strings usable. But, I will admit, I rarely use the zero pedal, but it is cool when I do.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 2:32 pm
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For bluesy stuff, I bet it's cool to hit that, strum, and let it drop to a 9th.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 2:34 pm
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At first I wanted to jump all over your assumptions, but then I re-read your post and I tend to aggrea that migration by the players to the single 12 should be happening faster unless there is something objectionable about a S12.
The S12 seems to fit the evolution of the instrument perfectly too.
1. No pitch changing mechanisms required many necks.
2. Arrival of pedals removed all but two necks.
3. Arrival of the all pull changer makes both popular tunings possible on single neck.
Not to mention, who doesn't want a lighter/more compact/less expensive guitar?
I have heard many well toned S12s so that can't be it.
My guess: We steel players are nostalgic, generally. As a demographic we resist change. Although it could be happening just slow enough it's hard to percieve. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but, I think the sales of the 12 string Uni PSG guitar have increased percentage wise from year to year over the last ten years more than any other model.
To a degree our copedent choices pigeon hole us. Guys like Winnie Winston, Julian Tharpe, Robert Randolph, Mike Perlowin, etc, have shown us different directions with their different copedents. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 2:58 pm
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Jim said:
| Quote: |
My guess: We steel players are nostalgic, generally. As a demographic we resist change. Although it could be happening just slow enough it's hard to percieve. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but, I think the sales of the 12 string Uni PSG guitar have increased percentage wise from year to year over the last ten years more than any other model. |
Gotta agree. But over the years, I have shaped my C6th to what I am most comfortable with, and I would miss the extra changes, and pedals that I moved to knee levers. But, I actually could live with an S12 Uni if I had to. And like I said, if I was just starting out, I would very seriously think about a 12 string Uni.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 3:01 pm
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| For bluesy stuff, I bet it's cool to hit that, strum, and let it drop to a 9th. |
Yup. And of course, the lowering back down of the 7th string gives you the 9th. Sometimes that is cool, sometimes not so much (the higher F# sounds better). I don't get the opportunity to play much blues these days, but the strum is cool for rock and even rockabilly tunes.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Michael Hummel
From:
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 3:21 pm
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I play primarily in a "new country" band, and although I've never played a 12-string guitar, I almost never use the low three strings on either neck. The only time would be when the other guitar player is soloing and I need to fill some chords on the low end.
I even leave the low string off of my C6 neck, because I can't get the darned ball to stick into the vee of the finger! But I never use it anyway, so I don't care.
Now that I've been playing for a little over a year, I totally understand the benefits of a universal tuning, and if I were to start over, I would probably go for the 12-string guitar. But I'm happy with the D-10, probably forever now!
Mike
_________________
MSA Classic 5+4
Too many 6-strings and amps to list |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 3:27 pm
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If one has the modern added pulls and doesn't want to lose them, a uni gets crowded. So crowded that mmost makers don't want to touch it.
It's a challenge to make it happen.
Mine, at 9 or 10 and 7, is gonna end up missing a lever. I think. Perhaps not, I think I overlooked something.
Over time, some changes beyond the standard 8 and 6 (an 8&4 guitar usually has right knees pulling both necks), and I see no reason to lose them. But if you have a pedal pulling on both necks, then your 8 is now really 9 and so on.
The two neck system forms a dichotomous approach to thinking, sadly perpetuated by the "lever lock" gang. It becomes harder to think of the other pockets when you think E9 v. B6 (or Bb6 vs Eb9), rather than ALL the pockets.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 3:28 pm
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I also play primarily in a "newer" country band, and play a lot on the lower strings. Even the older country songs are "modernized" in this band. Granted, the lower strings get used by me more in the classic country band I also play with.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 3:33 pm
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Lane... Exactly the reason I wouldn't switch from a D10 to a Uni at this point in my life. Don't want to lose the "extras". Also, I have no desire to move my E's to D# lever to my right knee. I think that is the most logical place for it as you need to hold it in while playing the 6th tuning pedals. On the left knee where I have it would be very uncomfortable and I have never been sold on the lever locks.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting. |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 4:32 pm
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| The whole time I played my D-10, on the E neck, my brain was screaming, "Where's the low root? I want it here! Where is it?" |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 6:55 pm
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I play a U-12,mostly on the E9 side,but a little B6 now and again.I LIKE having those low strings available.They're good for putting some punch behind someone else's solo or the lead vocal AND you can do some nice faux-baritone,especially with stuff that's in the sharped keys.
Q for 12-string players:Do a lot of you use the longer 12-string bar? I recently got one,almost as an experiment,and not expecting much difference.Now I wish I'd done it years ago. |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 9:13 pm
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I love 12 string guitars! Mickey Adams is rebuilding mine as a Universal E9/B6 8X5 and I can hardly wait to play it again. As much fun as E9 on SD10 is, the extra B6 pedals and strings on a Uni 12 just add a few more creative options. The low strings provide more range for rhythm playing, as well as the B6 chord foundations. It really doesnt weigh much more than an S10 either.
| Dave Hopping wrote: |
| ...Do a lot of you use the longer 12-string bar? |
I do. I have long fingers and was having problems using the standard Dunlop 920 bar on 10 strings. I got the Dunlop 921 for the 12 string and it just felt so much easier to use overall that now I use it on 10 string as well. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 9:21 pm
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Double neck guitars look a lot cooler than single necks 
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 4 Sep 2013 9:42 pm
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Great thread. I have watched and listened to the Uni players crowing about the advantages for years, and like (I expect) many players, I was unwilling to give up the few things on a D-10 or SD-10 like the 9th string D, raise and lowers on the A's on C6, etc. I just recently got a nice Carter U12 and have set it up in a modification of the Newman copedant, and only wish I'd done it 20 years ago.
It's a fine sounding guitar, with sustain and tone comparable to most of the Pro 10 string axes I've owned. I've had little trouble getting used to the different string grouping at the low end, D on a lever, etc. I think it might be difficult to add additional 6th changes (such as are on center cluster knee levers), but there is SO MUCH there as it is, I look forward to finding some work-arounds for the changes I have had on a dedicated 6th neck. Additionally, the B-central 6th tuning meshes with and fits with the E9 tuning much better than C does, and the whole makes great sense to me as a unified tuning. The low strings are just loaded with great potential for rhythm playing and beefy single note blues and rock stuff. Altogether the Carter I have with 7 and 5 pretty loaded up weighs less than 50# in the case.
So for me, win win. I love the universal setup, and I'm really having fun exploring. It's given me a whole new excitement for woodshedding.
I think there might be a clue about the popularity/acceptance in some of the above posts- many Uni players take the "one tuning or the other" approach, as evidenced by the lever lock and even Jeff Newman's instructional material- and I think many D-10 players have and do enjoy switching necks (and the attendant mindset) to move from one approach/sound/style to another. How many think of swing, jazz or even blues and rock as "back neck" territory?
It's really a blast being able to seamlessly float back and forth between the traditional sounds. Fun stuff.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 5 Sep 2013 12:17 am
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Mark, I lower the G# 6th string on my E9 a whole step. If I just put a half stop there, I would have half of my C6 A lowers. If I add a drop on 10, I'd have them both.
On my C6th I drop the high A a half and the low A a whole. that is the change I referenced earlier, when I said I thought I would have to give one up. But then I realized I won't because I already have it on the other neck. And it is incorporated into my absurd tuning
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Alan Berdoulay
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Posted 5 Sep 2013 1:00 am
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| What about string spacing? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 5 Sep 2013 1:22 am
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The same as 10s. nobody is going to go to the trouble of making fingers just for 12 string models
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 5 Sep 2013 4:20 am
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My Williams U12 is the first really good modern guitar I've ever owned. I don't have the time in the business you guys have, I've only been doing this for about 5 years. But for what it's worth I love this instrument, I don't miss string 9, as I can raise the B which would otherwise have been 10 on a 10-string.
I love the "continuous spectrum of styles" aspect that comes with having E9/B6 and those lower strings really add something.
I use the longer bar for 12 strings too, it really helps.
"The only constant in life is change" 
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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David Wright
From:
Pilot Point ,Tx USA.
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Posted 5 Sep 2013 4:30 am
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You mean to tell me theres a steel with 2 necks 
I need to get out more.....S-12... and Bb is where's it at!!  |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 5 Sep 2013 5:13 am
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Mark - I had read in another post you were toying with trying out the S12U approach. Glad to see it was a success.
Forumites - Now there's a guy who can speak from both sides of the fence. |
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Christopher Woitach
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 5 Sep 2013 6:28 am
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I'm with David!
I've been playing about four years, and have only played S-12 MSA guitars. The last 2 years, I've played Bb6, and I love it! Lots and lots going on there, sounds amazing (MSA Studio Pro)
B flat is where it's at!
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com |
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