Pro Model vs. Student Model

Frank De Vincenzo · From: The Garden State

Putting the cost aspect aside for a moment, is there any benefit to purchasing a pro level steel when you are a beginner-player with this instrument? From what I have been reading in your threads there seems to be no norm to go by. What I have picked up on, though, is the fact that even more expensive "pro" steels have build/quality issues to be aware of. Issues that you guys get very heated about, from what I have read.
A guy like me is still figuring out LKL, RKL, and I still don't know what the "V" in that nomenclature stands for? I certainly have no clue about an all pull, or push/pull, or some kind if hybrid of the previous systems...
I just want to play.
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JusticeJudge

Bill Moore · From: Manchester, Michigan

Here is the norm; any used steel guitar can have "issues". Some of them will be totally worn out, and almost impossible to play. Others might totally out of adjustment and need a complete set-up by someone that knows what he is doing. A new, economy level pedal steel should be fine, right out of the box. A new player needs to be able to concentrate on playing, not repairing his guitar. You can't go wrong with a new Stage One or Justice 3+4. I have owned both, and they are both very good. I like the Justice best, but it does cost a bit more.

As far as used pro model guitars; a lot depends on who you buy the guitar from. I have bought a lot of used guitars, nearly every one needed a significant amount of work. The ones that didn't, came from people that knew what they were doing. If you can, only buy a used guitar from someone that you can be sure knows something about playing and working on it.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The various student models get cheap by cutting costs and corners.
The old guitars (Sidekick, maverick, red Baron Emmons student) did it with solid cabinets, but limited changers, which basically allows you to get started, but as soon as you figure out how to add it all up to make music (picking, moving the bars, adding the pedals and knees into it, then adding it all together to make a good sound), you get frustrated because you hear all this stuff your guitar can't do.
Then came the GFI and Carter Starter. They have a full complement of changes, and the corners are cut in cabinetry and (especially in the Starter) with cheaper less substantial brackets and stops. This means that even before you'd get to the frustration point in the above guitars, you're fighting the guitar, but unless you have access to a good guitar, you don't know enough to know why you're not having any fun.
Enter the modern "economy" guitars, (I think) led by the Stage One, originally called the Zum student model.
Advances in assembly process and thinking allow the savings to come from assembly labor time. I don't know how fast Doug turns out Stage Ones and Encores, but I bet it's more than Bruce's 50 or so a year. And them, and the Justice ProLite, and others, are a pro grade guitar with solid playability and tone and stability.
The shortcomings of a student model aren't as blatant as the unplayable action and execrable tone of a Stella or a Harmony flattop, but they're there.
The Emmons student model is actually easily upgraded, it had the changer, you'd just need to throw $600 in parts at it (some say it sounded better than the pro S-10.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Mike Mantey · From: Eastern Colorado, USA

RKR- Right Knee going Right
RKL- Right Knee going Left
LKL- Left knee going Left
LKV- Left knee going up (vertical)
LKR- Left Knee Going Right.

CKL, CKR, CKV- The center cluster for the C6th.

And Just buy a Mullen Discovery and You will have it all. Very Happy

Most important thing is a working guitar. There is nothing that will discourage you more than working on your guitar more than playing it.

Jerry Van Hoose · From: Wears Valley, Tennessee

Frank, welcome Smile

. Although I play a "Show Pro, The Lloyd Green", which is considered a pro level guitar, the new S10 "lites" manufactured by Justice, Mullen & Stage One (please forgive me if I left one out) are every bit as capable. I wouldn't hesitate playing any one of these fine "lite" guitars at any venue. As a matter of fact, I'm considering purchasing one of them, loaded with my copedent to use as a "travel" guitar. Almost forgot.....the "V" stands for vertical knee lever as Mike pointed out in his reply.

Jeff Scott Brown · From: O'Fallon Missouri, USA

Jerry Van Hoose · From: Wears Valley, Tennessee

Thanks, Jeff. Yes, (knew I would leave some out), both GFI as well as BMI make a lite S10 guitar, student model, if you will, but with the capability of a pro level guitar.

Howard Steinberg · From: St. Petersburg, Florida , USA

Hey Frank - i think that the most important factor is finding an instrument that does not have mechanical/playing issues. A new student model is not a bad idea as these seem to be easily resold at not much of a loss. There are numerous student models to be avoided which have been mentioned previously. You also need to consider your height and length of your legs as it is substantially more difficult to play on a guitar that is too high or too low. Guitars can be raised or lowered but it's not likely something you want to be dealing with as a beginner. The key is to get a guitar that you can play rather than repair or continually adjust. There are good deals on used pro guitars on the forum. You need to get a sense of who the seller is and if he/she has enough of an understanding of the instrument to know if it is fully functional. This is a good place to ask questions.

Years ago Sam Ash in Paramus sold steels. I bought one from them in 1978. It was a long time ago but may be worth a call.
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Justice Pro Lite (4-5), Justice D-10 (8-5)x2 , Quilter Steelaire, Hilton Pedal, BJ's bar.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The GFI (I don't know about the MCI) has a reputation for body flimsy and related issues, that's why I lumped it in with the Carter Starter.
Again, I've no experience with MCI, but I'd urge someone to buy a Mav/Sidekick/Baron before I'd advise the GFI.
To add to the terms for the newbie, I'd point out that only the F lever has a universal meaning; it raises the Es to F. The lever designations beyond that (including D and E) don't have a standard generally accepted meaning.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Frank De Vincenzo · From: The Garden State

So, for approx $1500 for an Encore with carry case and pad, $500 for a Peavey Nashville 112, $175 for a good volume pedal, $350 for a seat/carry all, another $300 in miscellaneous hardware(cables, strings, finger picks, steels, am I forgetting anything?) I can spend the rest of my natural born days trying to master what sounds like one of the most difficult instruments on the planet? Count me in.
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JusticeJudge

Bill Howard · From: Indiana, USA

First I sat down to a GFI at a music store I had never seen one in person because I quit going to the convention many many years ago because I plain wouldn't pay the insane admission cost..
The one I sat down at was junk, I have seen many mavericks i cannot believe how bad they are..
I learned on a Fender the one Sho Bud made it is superior to a maverick or GFI Al Vessel bought a GFI and told me the fingers were bent on a brand new one he had bought Al didn't have any kind words for them either. Many many times on this Forum others indicated what a new player should get If you have 5/700.00 a Maverick or used other red baron,side kick,,
about 1000.00 a Stage one, add a hundred you can get a Simmons genesis they have a dbl body 3 flrs 4 knee levers... spend a bit more 1595.00 Fred Justice makes a fine geetar.. If you buy any used steel make sure your not getting a relic no one wants the "I have a deal" guys are waiting for you. Old Marlens and Millers historic as they are require someone who knows how to work on them..Some old S buds are only single raise and lower the barrel and rack system is OK you can add or change those. But personally I wouldn't EVER own a Sho Bud I never forgot that ^%$#@ Blankety Blank POT METAL Knee lever falling off my BRAND NEW LDG in 1984 at an Elks lodge a spotlight was on me!! Thanks to the IDIOT that thought that up Hope it saved you a bundle! I sold my Sho Bud the next day and have touched NARY one since. If your new get a hold of an honest informed person who doesn't stand to gain by selling you something a lot of us old farts are retired...they would be DEEEEE lighted to help lol Very Happy

a GFI or MAVERICK?? how about an Edsel or a YUGO:)

Dick Sexton · From: Greenville, Ohio

Frank,

You have been given some real good advice here, but from your last post it seems that you think it will be about $2500 to get started. I saw in another post that you play 6 string. When I started steel I also played 6 string and had all of the cables, even a volume pedal that would work. I also had an amp that would do. After taking a cheap bar stool(backless) and cutting the legs down, I had a seat that would do me for the first year. So...

A Stage-one for $1049.00, picks and bar(you don't need the best, just good), your on your way. The Stage-one comes with a case, leg and pedal rod bag. But if your using the case & leg bag in the first six months(except to take it to where your getting instruction), your probably doing it wrong. It will need to be setup and as close at hand as any of your other instruments. Closer really. You'll need to eat, sleep and live pedal steel guitar, to get you to where you sound like you want to be.

If you go this route, and in a year, you throw in the towel, you will get most of your investment back.

My experience is, most beginners take about a year to start making pretty good steel sounds. There are exceptions to that rule, but the % is low.

Welcome to the forum and the world of pedal steel guitar. Keep in mind though, the majority of these fellows have been doing this for a while, the ones that have, probably are not on their first steel. They have traded up. If you stay with it, you will too. But for now...

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

The first steel I owned was a $400 used Marlen pro model S-10. I played through a borrowed Ampeg B-15 (til my 3rd gig. Then straight to a Session 500). I used a used Sho-Bud pedal. Before you buy a new Encore (or Stage One, nobody should fear a well set up pull-release), look at the used axes on the forum.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Frank De Vincenzo · From: The Garden State

I keep chipping away at the mystery of the PSG and you fellas have been a great resource with your honest, personal experience answers to my freshman class inquiries.
I have learned more about steel guitars in the last week from reading the forum than I ever expected. Thank you all for your willingness to share and for the encouragement to proceed. It is very much appreciated.
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JusticeJudge

Bud Angelotti · From: Larryville, NJ, USA

What Dick & Lane just said.
You could buy a boeing 747 if you have the $$$, but that won't make you a pilot. Of course, how you spend your money is your business.
I bought a Martin d-35 in 1971 for $455.
It was certainly a better instrument than I was a guitar plunker. I still own it, and after all these years I feel I can do the instrument justice.
The only way to play the steel is to just play it, whether it's a beautiful Franklin or a 2X4 with a string nailed to it.
Don't delay, play it today! Smile

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Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not.

David Anderson · From: St. Louis, MO, USA

Frank, you'll have to look realistically with in your budget and shop accordingly. Definitely buy a steel with three pedals and four knee levers if possibly. Try to stick with a standard Emmons set up if possible, and as mentioned previously, consider your height.

Carter Starters are like any other entry level instrument. You can learn on them, but they will not be as smooth, solid, sound as tood, or play in tune as a pro model. If you can only afford $500-$600 for a steel, this is where you will be.

GFI student is a step up, but not much. I have played the Justice economy steel and recently played a student's Encore. The Justice played and sounded very good and the Encore blew me away at how good it felt and sounded! I assume the Stage One is close enough to the Encore that you could go a long way with that steel.

At this point, you may also consider a used MSA or BMI. Both are great steels, built like tanks, and under valued as far as the market is concerned in my opinion. However they are heavy and may need work as any used steel might, so consider your options to finding a tech in your area.

Again, buy the best steel you can afford! Get a decent volume pedal like a Goodrich or Hilton. Bar, picks, tuning wrench, tuner (or tuner app for your phone), and at least a practie amp. The forum is your best resource for learning about steel guitar! The knowledge here is priceless!

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Hi Jason save your money and buy a professional grade guitar.

If there's no way that iyou are going to be able to afford one in therelatively near future, then I'd go with the Zum Encore /Stage-One. Remember, you can get some nice used guitars for the price of a new student horn.

"Pro" grade guitars usually: sound better, are more durable, made w/ superior quality, easier to work on and better sounding. They usually command a better re-sale value, as well.

There have beeen many threads on just this subject. Check'em all out

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

First, keep in mind, there are really three levels of guitars now: student, pro, and in between are the "flight models" that are S-10's with an effort to keep weight down, but have a pro changer to them. These are sometimes not as flashy looking. Price jumps up accordingly with each step.

Here is the trade-off, in a nutshell: if you knew you actually were going to stay with this instrument and play for many years, then a student model does not make sense. Go ahead and buy a pro or "flight" model if you have the money. There is an issue here, addressed below, but first:

A good-quality student model (like the Stage One) means you do not have a lot of money tied up in the guitar, and if you decide pedal steel is not for you, they sell easily for just under what a new one costs. It might serve you well for many years, or you might decide after 6 months you want to try some different ideas with the levers that a basic student model will not allow. Just depends. With a pro or flight model, you have that covered.

The problem with starting out with a pro model right away is you could still end up wanting something different in a year or so. After 6 months of playing, I knew I wanted to play C6 style, and did not want to wait and learn it later, but learn both tunings together. That meant I needed a double neck or a universal guitar. So, I traded up.

I agree with those who say consider a used pro model, but I know as a newbie it is very hard to know what is a good one and what is not. The forum will certainly help in that if you want, but ideally you have a friend who plays who can help you sort through the various models.

My attitude is life is short, and playing steel guitar gives me a lot of pleasure. So I probably have too much money in guitars, amps, etc and my playing hardly begins to do justice to it. Well, some guys my age go out and buy an exotic sports car or a new Harley. The money I have in all my guitar equipment might buy me a used beater car. So, my pleasures come cheaper than some people's.

A late-model used student, flight or Pro from a reputable builder (Zum, Stage One, Mullen, Emmons, MSA, Justice, Rains, Fessenden, Williams, Rittenberry - I'm sure I've missed a few) at a decent price will get you started and even if you sell it in a year or two, you will get almost all your money back. So, it really comes down to how much you are willing to tie up in this idea. Keep in mind you will need a basic amp, strings, bar, and picks. A volume pedal can wait at least 3 months IMO.

I do not have the experience of most of the others who have posted, but I have walked this path myself the past couple of years.
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental!

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Also, most of us would happily go with a student to check out a prospective guitar, to assess it. That way you would reduce the chances of getting a dud.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Brett Day · From: Pickens, SC

The Jackson Blackjack Custom is a steel guitar that anyone can play, whether you are a new player or if you've been playin' steel for a few years-great for any level, it's a guitar that can be played anywhere-it can have three pedals, four knees or however many pedals and knees you feel comfortable with-it's got great sound, playability, tone, pedal action, and stays in tune well

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Brett, nobody would dispute that the Jacksons make good guitars, but if someone is looking for economical entry guitars (notice the OP considered the cost of new Encore a barrier) 3K for a single neck ain't economy, and not many people are selling their old ones.
Worth it? Yes. Better than the economy guitars? Probably, but only in manners that matter to experienced players: a newb would notice it was nice but couldn't tell you WHY.
Worthy of consideration if you read the menu right to left? Naah. A starter guitar only for those who wouldn't want to start playing flat top with anything less than a D-28, or electric with anything less than an American Tele or Paul.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Joseph Napolitano · From: New Jersey, USA

I'm also a new player from New Jersey.I would advise against getting a used steel as your first guitar.If you did and it needed work(and it would ,eventually)Who are you gonna get to work on it? There aren't that many psg service techs around here.Almost a year ago I bought a new GFI ultra from Billy Cooper's steel Guitars in Virginia.I'm very happy ,it stays in tune,sounds great,no issues.Billy and Wanda Cooper are 2 of the best people I have ever dealt with.They are very knowledgeable ,patient,honest,and have been a great resource for someone like me who has a lot to learn for a long time.

steve takacs · From: beijing, china via pittsburgh (deceased)

Frank, I have bought a lot of pro quality, decent and reasonably priced steel guitars that did not need much work if any.. If you have a steel playing, friend, , have that person go with you and play and inspect it. I have a Zumsteel D-10 8 &9 and a Stage one 3 & 4 here in China. The Stage One is what I use when I play gigs here in Beijing. stevet

Alan Berdoulay · Posted 5 Sep 2013 1:20 am

If I was starting out I'd be sorely tempted to grab this deal recently listed in the for sale section........Author Topic: 2005 Carter SD-10 3+5 & Peavy 112 , perfect condition $1600. .......you can learn a lot by watching the classifieds.

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