PF Studies. New doors..

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

It says
"Techniques" so I suppose it'll fit in amongst all the "Theorums"

After going thru the newest PF E9 single note CDs, I found I was way ahead of the game learning the whole songs, and forcing myself to commit them to memory. That's the way BC used to do his lessons, at least 26 years ago. It was more technique, with the theory as an attendant, or after thought. I took a good honest month to go thru both CDs. No "skimming".

( If nothing else, when tempted to "skim", I can still see Bud C sitting there after taking his picks off, legs crossed and kind of slumped there at his steel in front of me with the most amused scowl, watching with those kindly, steely blue "Stonewall Jackson" eyes, me sweating buckets trying to remember what I was "noodling through". It seems like it was just yesterday. Some mental images last a long time, even when I'm running short of "film". I still owe him a lot.)

Then, I ran across some of his earlier PF tapes that I was able to borrow.

The Earlier "method" of studying scales and runs, dim, aug, etc "movement" would have been a little much to "put into use" by themselves.

This way, I can "replace" four bar sections with a movement, scale, or pattern on the earlier ones, and apply them conciously to the "songs" I've commiteed to "rote".

I like a lot of his "explanations" about how you can "break musical rules" " for a short time". I've always thought that myself, and sometimes for not so short a time....

Anyhow, they've been very valuable in being able to break into a whole tone or diminished scale, use the "three frets up" ( and two frets down(same scale)) chord, and be in a place where you can resolve, or use "fragment tags". Now when I listen to things like Married to Waitress, D Str etc, a lot of things are making sense to me.

In a way I'm glad my "day job" took such a dive this season. It's allowed me to spend an honest couple of hours a day plugged in and picking. Sometimes 8-10 the way I "used to".

No shame at all admitting that my "bag of tricks" was getting pretty lame....

Thanks to to PF for taking the time.

EJL

PS Now I might be able to get the bands I play with to do "dimished chords".... ( Just Kidding Monty M, Jason S, Tim R, Buddy C, Larry J, et al...)

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I think I've read all of your comments on this subject. Thanks for your thoughts. A lot of what you say is a pretty good fit for me (except that I expect that you are far more experienced and accomplished than me.) And some stuff doesn't really fit me but your observations are well enough expressed that you give me cause to examine my opinions and question whether they are honestly come by or are reactionary artifacts of a younger, more rebellious me. Anyway, you've given me some ideas to help me fight my way out of my own very lame and small paper bag of tricks.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Well. if I'm rebellious at 50, I am glad of it.

I've been hauling machinery today, but I've been running that "two frets down/three frets up" around in my head figuring out what the "modal" relations are. Undoubtably it's "minor".

I certainly try not to "overstate" my "ability", as I just don't look at doing so as doing my own self esteem any good. I don't see the "real greats" doing it..

Gotta run. One more paver to deliver before dark. Just stopped in for a few minutes.

EJL

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

When I read an old-timer here on the forum writing incessantly about how back when everything was right with the world (ie. back in his time) players knew how to play, what to play, and did it the way it was meant to be done, it helps me to remember that he only answer to "what are you rebelling against" is "what'cha got?" And 3 months into 50 myself, it pleases me to still find enough disgust to keep the mold off. But the rebelliousness I referred to is the inability to receive the mentoring of someone like your BC (Bob Hoffnar here in NY also speaks of the benefits he has enjoyed for years from Mr C.) My limitations, lack of discipline, attention span woes (not clinical, I guess, but it wouldn't surprise me) etc. result in frustrations that tend to lead me to lash out and reject strict methods such as you describe of Buddy's teaching. Screw this! I don't need this guy telling me what to do! He doesn't even know me! Maybe my adaptations of his lessons are better! I'm personalizing his lesson! Making it fit ME better.
blahblah. Resulting in quitting the lessons, the objective to begin with. THERE'S the reactionary artifacts of a younger, more rebellious me. If I can get that shit out of my way, maintain my disrespect for moldy figs stuck in their own fictitious vapor lock, and take wisdom from whoever's around handing it out and inspiration from other folks who are good at expressing their own ways of approaching this quest, then hell, I might be better tomorrow than I am today.

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

I've tried, but I can't seem to keep a reply less than 5000 words..

I think what I saw in Bud C was that he was willing to work harder on his playing than he asked of his students. I'm not sure he even "liked" me. He wanted me to start blocking with my ring finger about 6 months into our lessons "like Mr Emmons". I humored him, but went right back to the little finger like he showed me to start with.

I didn't buy a Sierra when he endorsed them, I Don't want a new ZumSteel ( though they ARE nice). I'm just me.

I'll always "fall short" of what he would expect, but I think he's as hard on himself. Don't ask me why.

Its something that's not really explainable.

Maybe he's "Relaxed" a little. I hope not..

Anyhow I'm still wondering if PF's "alternate scales are "modally explainable" Maybe Aeolian, Dorian, Lydian etc.

He's sure got a good way of explaining the things he plays in terms of "sound".

Like BC, it seems to be "his enthusiasm" that I pick up on.

If Construction wouldn't have slumped this year, I'd still be more intent on making 1500/week playing weekends, and five-7 nighters ragged as hell, and just doing what I've done for the last ten years.

As it is, I've had a lot more time to thankfully go over a lot of stuff I'd forgotten.

It was just dumb luck that I found Mr C at OXON Hill Music in 77. A friend in the barracks at AAFB suggested I go check him out when I showed an interest in PSG after playing a lap steel on a ferry boat to England with a bunch of drunken east enders that were the crew. I was half drunk on this horrid green beer.

It's not like I "sought him out". It was just "dumb luck".

Some of the best luck I ever had..

I promise never to mention Bud C. again.

( just kidding...)

Gotta run. Grinding pavement in the morning.

EJL

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Eric,
You are right about both being minor. The b3 is a 'blue note' and Paul often resolves it to the Major 3rd or natural 3rd.

If you think about where you find Cm on the E9 neck, one choice is A+B or B+C on the 6th fret. Root is on the 7th and 1st strings. Another is up a tritone (3 frets) with the A pedal, so, for Cm that would be the 11th fret and the root is on 5A and 10A.

The 'back two' position is the Dorian mode. If you think C on the 8th fret, 8,7,6 is C,D,E. If you go back 2 on 7,6,6B you get C,D,Eb (a minor scale fragment. You can play the same positions as the CMajor scale 2 back and you get Cmi7, aka the Dorian mode. To resolve the minor to the major you just move the bar up one (6th string) instead of using the B pedal and then up again to get the major third.

The 'up three' position with the A pedal is the Aeolian mode, with the root on the 10th or 5th strings (10A or 5A). To resolve the minor to the major you can add the F lever. Buddy Emmons has several signature licks that use this idea.

The Aeolian mode is found by playing a major scale and starting on the 6th. This relationship is the relative major/minor. Like C and Am. Going in the other direction, Eb is the relative major of Cm. Therefore, if you play an EbMaj scale starting on the 6th (5th/10th strings with the A pedal), you got it.

Hope this wasn't too confusing, but those are very useful positions for playing minor stuff, e.g., minor pentatonic or the other scales with a minor third as well as 'blue note' type stuff.
------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 June 2003 at 07:56 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Hey Larry, is there a good book on modes, that's not too complicated? I'm told I play this stuff already(on guitar)but I want to learn to "speak the language," as far as modes go. Thanks.

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Steve,
There is a really cool thread over in No Peddlers (Click Here)
The site they're talking about is referenced in the first message and it's written from two perspectives: standard 6 string guitar and C6 lapsteel. The author has also recently joined into the discussion. His name is Denny Turner and he has an understandable approach to modality and scale substitutions.

Most jazz improv books also discuss the diatonic modes, but often in a much less comprehensible manner than Denny. If I were you I'd read the LENGTHY thread in No Peddlers and check out Denny's site. I think you'll get a lot out of it and, yes, many musicians relate naturally to the modes. There are several good reasons, one being that it allows you to take a scale pattern or pocket to different frets and change the complexion of the scale by mutating the order of whole and half steps (that's what modes are). For example, you can play a CMajor scale over CMaj7, Dmi7, Emi7, FMaj7, G7 or G9, Ami7, and Bdim. The most 'natural sounding' ones are CMaj7, Dmi7, and G7. The others have scale tones that sound more 'out' to the ear and make interesting substitutions, particularly in a jazz context. It's not the only way to play jazz by any means, but it's a cool way to start because most players know how to play a major scale.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Thanks Larry. I'm studying.

Also I'm hearing a Lydian "up two frets", and I'm going to go farther as soon as I get some sleep...

Last night I found some neat diminished runs going up a fret at a time, starting from the 10th, 9th and 8th stings and playing them identically, and am finally starting to think "guitar scales". It's funny that a guy can go a quarter century or more and not know how to look at his scales laterally AND linearly ( is that a word?)

I guess cause you can play "Crazy Arms" and Sweet Home Alabama without any of that "fancy stuff.

Pfff..

The whole tones are places I never thought of, and move up great. Just like that.

Anyhow/ Thanks. I'm beat....

Plenty more questions I'm sure as I work more on it.. ( or is that "moron" it..

Just perused the link... Jeezz..

I think theres an answer or two there..

Thanks again. More when I can get my fingers working. Too many chain binders today..

Actually caught my old "Boss" Rythym Dr "rushing" on me tonite. That's a first. Even the machines do it... ( probably a dirty pot.)

EJL

[This message was edited by Eric West on 25 June 2003 at 09:24 PM.]

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