Emmons Push Pull Questions

Jeff Metz Jr. · From: York, Pennsylvania, USA

Okay,
I have seen a ton of threads on the Emmons Push Pull guitar, but none that I have found answer the questions I am asking.

1) I never see a number of raises or lowers the changer has on an Emmons. Where as an All-Pull guitar usually states its ability ( such as 3 raises, 3 lowers etc.)

2) Can an Emmons guitar get all of the the same changes as a modern All pull guitar?

3) Can you mess an Emmons Push Pull up Permenently by adjusting something wrong or Not knowing what your doing underneith the guitar?

4) Do Emmons' guitars continually appreciate in value or is it only certain Models?

5) Lastly, Can anyone Date my New Emmons S12 PP guitar? Seriel # 142 S.
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Jack Stepick · From: New Jersey, USA

My Emmons S12 P/P, serial number 175, is a 1980 vintage if that helps.
You can contact Emmons Guitar Co. for a date of manufacture.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

1. Not the same. There is one raise and one lower connection to a PP guitar finger. Different mechanism.

2. Possibly but can become complicated.

3. You can screw it up but not permanently. (in most cases).

4. As with any guitar, depends on supply and demand.

5. No comment.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

To amplify Jack's points, because (typically) all raises on a string share the same rod, and all lowers share the same rod, If you loaded up a U-12 with 10 pedals and 7 knees, you could have every single rod pull or push one string.
Splits arendererre hard but not impossible (but requires someone pretty clever). I think I'd rather have half stop.
Because people like the feel and tone, the push-pull appears to continue its appreciation.
With all the resources available to teach you how to maintain and hotrod a push-pull, I'd have little sympathy for someone who rendered his unplayable.
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Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

This stuff is much easier if you have seen it done but here is the wilderness guide.
http://www.melmusic.com/laceyj/guide.html
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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Jon Smorada · From: Industry, PA USA

Another point worth mentioning is that some modern changes don't seem to translate well on a P/P. When I had my '66 Emmons set up I had a change put on that lowered the the 5th string a whole tone with the 4th pedal in addition to the 4th pedal being used on the C6th neck. I was warned that I would have problems with the change such as de-tuning, but I decided to try it anyway. I noticed that the 5th string would constantly go out of tune and when I used the 4th pedal the 6th string would go flat. No amount of tweaking would correct the problem, but removing the 4th pedal lower made the problem go away.
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Jon
'66 Emmons P/P D-10 4x8
Mullens Discovery 4x3

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

3 raise,3 lower is 'all-pull' changer terminology. doesn't apply to push-pulls or for that matter, older rack and barrel type sho-buds. if this is important to you maybe you should stick with an all-pull changer.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

1) I never see a number of raises or lowers the changer has on an Emmons. Where as an All-Pull guitar usually states its ability ( such as 3 raises, 3 lowers etc.)

Many of the changes on a PP are done underneath the guitar with knurled tuners on the rods rather than in a hole in the changer finger. The number of holes in the changer finger is what is meant by 3 raises, 3 lowers on an all pull guitar. Therefore you can put whatever you want on a PP up to a point. The lowers can jam things up a bit.

2) Can an Emmons guitar get all of the the same changes as a modern All pull guitar?
It can be done but if you are mostly interested in having tons of lowers and raises that can change around whenever you want an all pull is way better.

3) Can you mess an Emmons Push Pull up Permenently by adjusting something wrong or Not knowing what your doing underneith the guitar?

Depends on how good you are at breaking things...

4) Do Emmons' guitars continually appreciate in value or is it only certain Models?
Generally yes but it depends on how much you paid and if you are in a hurry when you sell.
_________________
Bob

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Triple raise PP on U-12 by Bobby Bowman and works well.

_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Jon Smorada · From: Industry, PA USA

You're absolutely correct, Bob. What I love most about my P/P is the pure sound and sustain.

What I don't like about my P/P is that, as you said, too many lowers can jam things up, cause tuning issues and reduce playability (pushing down a pedal would require hydraulic assist lol).

What I absolutely hate about my P/P is that it's way too damn heavy to haul around. It's bad enough I haul around an old Evans loaded with a 15" Black Widow (I put heave-duty casters on it but I still have to heave it up into the pickup). I'm not getting any younger and am working on getting a S-10 on a D-10 body all-pull with a split case that I can use for gigging and reserving the P/P for "special occasions" that don't require it's leaving the house.
_________________
Jon
'66 Emmons P/P D-10 4x8
Mullens Discovery 4x3

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I have read of some ingenious attempts at achieving splits but in general, you cannot do them. Raise overrides lower. So if you have a beloved 6th string B pedal + lever G note split on an all-pull, you will need to rethink how to get this on a pp.

Jon Smorada · From: Industry, PA USA

I happen to have a good friend who is an excellent P/P tech and picker as well. This person works on my guitars and I don't trust anyone else to set a finger on them. I was warned about the split but stupidly tried it anyway. I don't touch anything other than assembling, tuning, changing strings and scheduled lube jobs. Once in a while pushing away a drunk who's about to fall on it (happened more than once!). Out of respect for this person's privacy I won't divulge their identity even through a PM, so don't even ask. Wink

If the person wants to put in their 2-cent's worth, you'll hear it... Smile

_________________
Jon
'66 Emmons P/P D-10 4x8
Mullens Discovery 4x3

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

One alternative to not having the split lowering 6 along with the B pedal is to raise 7 and pick up another string for a "feel stop" at G. You also get a tighter feeling B pedal, without the slack necessary for the lower on 6.

Jon Smorada · From: Industry, PA USA

I'll think about that but after watching the doctor performing surgery on the underbelly of this beast I'm probably going to leave it be. At least removing the lower was easy as it only involved loosening a collar and not having to remove any rods/springs etc. Adding parts can be a whole different animal since it will probably require moving some things around and making it even heavier than it already is.

One of the changes I have works great and I'm glad I have it.It raises the 2nd string with a 1/2 stop to G then it continues another 1/2 step to G# with the RKR along with raising the the second string from D#-E. That gives me an easy way to go from 5-1 and also to add a bluesy 1/2 step bend using the 1st string by itself. And I don't have to slant the bar to do it...I'm just getting lazy in my old age Wink

.

When I finally get the all-pull (hopefully a LeGrande III), I'll add a few more years to my back and get some cool new changes to challenge and confuse me more that I already am!
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Jon
'66 Emmons P/P D-10 4x8
Mullens Discovery 4x3

john widgren · From: Wilton CT

Push pull guitars CAN be permanently damaged by incorrect set up. Terminal raises can gouge the body contact point, and incorrectly stopped lowers can gouge the lowering portion of the changer finger with the lower tuning bolt. Scored changer axles can also happen. These are permanent and unnecessary damages.

There are other ways to screw up a good PP too. Know what you are doing or pay someone who does.
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Jon Smorada · From: Industry, PA USA

That's exactly why, as the only computers I trust with my women are unix, the only person I trust with my P/S is a pro who is very well known to be the best of the best.

The unix joke is a play on words, if ya don't get it take a history lesson on Ancient Rome...b0b will get it Wink

_________________
Jon
'66 Emmons P/P D-10 4x8
Mullens Discovery 4x3

Mike Wilson · From: Mansfield, Ohio, USA

I agree pretty much with what everyone else has already said. With the exception of splits you can pretty much do whatever you want on the push pull. Pretty much anything you screw up can be fixed. you might have to get parts but that usually isn't a problem. I just rebuilt one and replaced all the worn parts with new parts directly from Emmons, so, they are available. I wouldn't attempt it without some instruction on it first. Learn about what makes it work and why before trying to do it yourself.
As far as appreciation. I just had 3 up for sale and I've realized, that even though I thought I had them priced more than very reasonably, they are still only worthwhat someone will give for them. Don't know if it is the economy or if people just want something for nothing. Either way I decided to keep them. Push pulls are not bad guitars. You just have to have it setup right and take care of it, like anything else.

Jeff Metz Jr. · From: York, Pennsylvania, USA

Let me throw my Current Copedent into the mix and See if ya'll can educate me.
Can I get anywhere close to these changes on my New s12 pp? *EDIT*
I should have mentioned Lane that I have a 4 pedals and 5 knee Levers on the new P/P. Unlike the 5 pedals and 4 knees I had on the sierra. I know Ill lose some pedal changes but I would want to throw something on the vertical.

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Mullen G2 SD10 , Lil Izzy Buffer, Goodrich 120 volume pedal, Boss DD-7, Peterson Strobo flip, Peavey Nashville 112

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Yes. Not even a problem. You'll tune the 4th string LKL under the guitar.
If you're used to a tunable C you want a mechanical half stop on the A pedal.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
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