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Topic: old Marlen pull/release system.. any help? |
Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 11 Aug 2013 4:00 pm |
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Just made a deal on a nice old S10- 3 and 4.. Too sweet a deal to pass up.
If I can get it changed to my copedent, and learn how to set it up, it might be the "vintage" steel I have longed for.. The sound and look of "old", but with good playability, mechanical reliability, and first and foremost STAYING IN TUNE...
However, the PR system makes me hyperventilate.. I am afraid of it, and have failed miserably in previous attempts to adjust them..
Could be I was just missing a simple procedure I was unaware of.. Seems I recall they have some sort of "balancing act" thing going that baffled me, and made me feel stupid...
I had an old Maverick that was PR I think.. never had a problem with that from what I recall...
Are these Marlen P/R guitars hard to deal with??.. I hear once they are set up they STAY set up...
1- Will I be able to switch the knees to my copedent??.
2-Any limitations on which changer fingers can raise or lower=?..
3- Can I double raise and lowe on each string??..
I know there are a few [very few] guys on the forum that like these steels and know them pretty well.. Ricky, you out there?... I would really like to be able to call upon a forum buddy or two when this steel gets here.. It is supposed to be my gig guitar, we'll see how that works out.. any help from those that know will be so greatly appreciated... bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 11 Aug 2013 4:22 pm
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1: yes
2: Only if you can't find parts
3: seen push-pulls? Half tone tuners. Just like push-pulls and two-hole Buds, you can't do a lot for timing pulls, but you can load it up.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Evan Rose
From:
Tarboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2013 4:13 pm
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Clyde Mattocks may have some insight on the pull release system.....as I believe the early model Cherokee guitars he built were pull release.....
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"Strayhorn Era" 1998 LeGrande III D-10 8x6, Nashville 400, Mexican Tele, and several Martins..... |
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Duncan Hodge
From:
DeLand, FL USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2013 4:18 pm
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Ricky Davis knows a great deal about how to work on Marlens
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"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over." |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2013 5:08 pm
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General procedure on pull/release guitars. The highest pitch that any given string must reach is tuned at the tuning key (machine head). The lowest pitch that string must reach is tuned at the end plate. Any mid pitch, which may include the "home" position will be tuned with some sort of underneath adjustment, many times a thumb screw. Also E to F knee lever will tune underneath similar to push/pulls. On Marlens, Leonard Stadler made modifications as he went, so some of his may tune the mid or "home" position at the end plate as well as the lowers. I know this may be confusing, but I sometimes have to study these old beasts for a while to figure out what the builder intended.
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LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Russ Tkac
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Posted 12 Aug 2013 5:22 pm
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Duncan ... nice shirt!  |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2013 6:16 pm
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| Clyde Mattocks wrote: |
| General procedure on pull/release guitars. The highest pitch that any given string must reach is tuned at the tuning key (machine head). The lowest pitch that string must reach is tuned at the end plate. Any mid pitch, which may include the "home" position will be tuned with some sort of underneath adjustment, many times a thumb screw. Also E to F knee lever will tune underneath similar to push/pulls. On Marlens, Leonard Stadler made modifications as he went, so some of his may tune the mid or "home" position at the end plate as well as the lowers. I know this may be confusing, but I sometimes have to study these old beasts for a while to figure out what the builder intended. |
Clyde, you have an email... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 12 Aug 2013 9:25 pm
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To add to what Clyde said, when you are actually setting the guitar up, the fingers usually touch the body of the steel when fully raised, then, when released, the string tension pulls the fingers back until they are stopped by the tuning screws at the top of the endplate.
That is a simple open/raise.
When it is lower/open/raise, the finger is held in the mid position by a spring, here's where it all happens 
Every Marlen that I have seen is different, the pull-release principle is the same, but the method of getting the mid-note varies from guitar to guitar.
On my Marlen, I have the open position of the 4th string tuned by a position stop on the lowering knee lever.
There are many ways to do it, can you post photos of the steel and your copedent, so we can see what particular setup your Marlen has
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 12 Aug 2013 10:48 pm
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| Richard......excellent explanation! |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 13 Aug 2013 12:06 am
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| Ricky, can you double raise lower? What about setting up the 4th string 3rd pedal F#? How are the standard 4th string 3 pulls accomplished? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Aug 2013 3:43 am
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Kevin, on MY old Marlen, the three pulls worked like this:
C pedal; collar behind the swivel, no half tone tuner. F# tuned at Keyhead.
LKL F, swivel had a half tone tuner on the same rod as C pedal, tuned at the tuner (unlike Emmons, his tuner had a big thumbwheel that made it easy to find).
The LKR (lowering) shaft had a tuning nut on it (annoyingly taking a slotted screwdriver) in the window in the endplate that tuned the E at rest. The D# was tuned with the screw in the endplate.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2013 6:23 am
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Lane, you may want to look for the Marlen tuning tool. It looks like one of the hex wrenches made to adjust nylon tuners, except it is a round tube with a flat blade recessed inside to fit over the screws you are adjusting with a flat blade screwdriver. In the Winnie Winston book you see a photo of Bowman playing a Marlen and you can see the Marlen wrench on an endplate tuning screw.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 13 Aug 2013 6:31 am
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NOW you tell me.
I sold the guitar in 83 to an Ethiopian diplomat.
That sounds like a handy tool indeed. I could use one on those SU carbs on the 240Z
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2013 11:06 am
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| richard burton wrote: |
To add to what Clyde said, when you are actually setting the guitar up, the fingers usually touch the body of the steel when fully raised, then, when released, the string tension pulls the fingers back until they are stopped by the tuning screws at the top of the endplate.
That is a simple open/raise.
When it is lower/open/raise, the finger is held in the mid position by a spring, here's where it all happens
Every Marlen that I have seen is different, the pull-release principle is the same, but the method of getting the mid-note varies from guitar to guitar.
On my Marlen, I have the open position of the 4th string tuned by a position stop on the lowering knee lever.
There are many ways to do it, can you post photos of the steel and your copedent, so we can see what particular setup your Marlen has
[img]http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/userpix1205
/2419_pullrelease_1.jpg[/img] |
Richard I will post pics of the underside when it gets here... meantime thanks for the help.. I will probably need more as well!..
Will I be able to get the E's -F on a lever, E's to Eb on another lever and the standard ABC pedals??.. If I can't raise and lower both E strings a half tone, PLUS raise the E a full tone on pedal 3, its not the guitar for me, and off it goes..I have a few "backup buyers" waiting ... I am not expecting miracles, but I really must have the E-F and E- Eb changes as well as the C pedal full tone raise.. Also need to lower string 2 a full tone in 2 steps... Again, if not its probably a deal breaker regardless of how great the steel sounds... I might be able to get used to "half pedaling" the 2nd string full tone lower however.. Depends on how much I like the sound and look I guess..
Any thoughts on if these rather basic changes can be had on this pull system???... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2013 11:31 am
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Yes Bob all that you just said you need is very much a yes on the pull-release system; set a million of them up that way.
But like Clyde eluded to; they are all kind of personally set up to tune/adjust differently from time to time...and seeing maybe even closer pics than that are there could help.
It looks like it is all there..and from the end plate; there are the correct pulls there...just need to get it and start messing with it; you'll figure it out. Then you can figure on how you could maybe change some things around?? Either me or Richard or Clyde can set that thing up in a matter of maybe 5 minutes....but back in our day of figuring it out...it took us a bazzillion minutes and a lot of hair pulling and cuss words...but then "LIGHTBULB"!!! and all is well..ha.
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2013 12:40 pm
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Glad some others have chimed in on this. Richard's post and illustration is clearer than my explanation. I should have added, as he did, that the raises are stopped by the actual body of the guitar. The mid or "home" postiton, no matter where the tuning point is, will be lnked somehow to the lowers and will be accomplished by interrupting the travel of the lowers. Thanks Richard and Ricky.
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LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 13 Aug 2013 12:49 pm
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Thanks guys.. I will take some good pics, and am glad you guys are adept at this system!
I will do what I did on my first Fender cable steel.. lay under it with spotlights glaring upward to the pull train, and just work all the raises, lowers, stops, etc, and see how everything interacts..
I'll be yelping for help before long, and I want you guys to know how much I appreciate your knowledge... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Mule Ferguson
From:
N Wilkesboro NC,
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Posted 14 Aug 2013 4:50 am
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http://masga.org/?page_id=27
Mike Callaway from Salem VA. worked for Marlen. and he helped me with my Marlen. Changed it from Day to Emmons, added some extra springs and rods, cleaned,lubed,
Mule
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Emmons La Grande D10, Zum Encore, Multicord,Marlen S10 1972, Nashville 112, Evans HVP #2, Peavey Profex ll, Martin, Merle Travis D28M Bigsby Neck.
D28 Henderson, Dobro and Tut Bro. Fender Tele, Stelling Stagehorn Banjo |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2013 8:41 am
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Ok I found some stuff I wrote on how I set up/suggest the pull-release Marlen.
| Tab: |
Tuning the Single Finger Pull-Release Marlen
Section 1 is for all strings that either raises or lowers
Section 2 is for strings that Raise and Lower
Section 1
1) Tune all open notes to pitch
2) Tune all Raises on pedals and knee levers first, to desired pitch; than retune open string with the metal hex screw on the end plate(5th string raise on “C†pedal is tuned with barrel tuner on rod)
3) For lowers; engage pedal or knee lever; and tune with hex screw on the end plate, to desired pitch.
Section 2
E9 neck
1) Strings 4 & 8 both raise and lower; so tune the 4th string raise to F# on pedal first. Than retune open E note with the nylon tuner that lowers the string. Than engage the lower and tune to desired pitch with the hex screw on the end plate. Than tune the raise to F knee lever with the nylon tuner that raises the string.
2) For the 8th string; tune the raise with the nylon tuner that raises the string…than tune the lower on hex screw on the end plate.
Section 3
C6 neck
1) Strings 3; 9 and 10 both raise and lower; so tune the pedal raise to D to pitch; than retune open note with nylon tuner that lowers. Than engage lower and tune desired pitch on hex screw at the end plate.
2) Strings 9 & 10 are tuned the same as string 3.
More Info on set up.
What I would suggest is that on strings 3 & 6 (I'm assuming this is an E9th. tuning) you adjust the pedal stop screws (on the bellcrank where the pedal rod connects to the torsion bar) so that both changer fingers pull solidly against the body, (you may only be able to get one or the other to make solid contact but thats ok) then tune both strings to A with the pedal depressed. Then release the pedal and tune the open note to G# with the stop screws behind the changer.
Then do the same procedure with 5 & 10, pedal down, both fingers pulled solid against the body (if possible), tune to C#, then tune B notes (after releasing the pedal) with the stop screws.
Same procedure as above for the C pedal raises.
Any strings that only lower, like the 2nd. string will be held to the raised note by a spring. tune those at the keyhead to the open note then actuate the knee lever and tune the lower note with the stop screw for that string.
Now where these guitars get complicated is if you have the E to F changes on 4 & 8.and also the E to Eb on those strings.
Especially the 4th. string. You'll have an F# on the C pedal tuned at the keyhead, an F on a knee lever tuned either with the stop screw on the knee lever under the guitar or at the end plate like an all pull. Then you'll have the open E note tuned at the end plate like an all pull. And finally an Eb tuned with the stop screw behind the changer. To get all this to work there has to be slack or lost motion adjusted into the raise rods to allow room for the lowers to operate.
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 14 Aug 2013 10:11 am
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I've added some descriptions to these diagrams
See it animated HERE
Last edited by richard burton on 14 Aug 2013 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2013 10:17 am
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Ya see; look how cool richard is!! awesome bro; kinda makes me miss working on Marlen's...but if I took marlen's back on; than I wouldn't be the exclusive shobud man anymore..ha...
Ricky
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2013 4:45 pm
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Thanks again Richard and Ricky. This is the most in depth post on pull release that I have seen and has been sorely needed as there are a lot of these old guitars out there that still sound great. It would be nice if this were made a "sticky".
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LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Ray Anderson
From:
Jenkins, Kentucky USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2013 5:41 pm
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+ 1 for a sticky on this Clyde, I've got one of these Pull Release I'm a fixin' to tackle come winter time.  |
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Harry Sheppard
From:
Kalispell, MT USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2013 6:10 pm
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You can also add compression springs to eliminate the slack if you really want to have some fun. I had my Marlen set up with perfectly timed pulls and lowers on all changes. It takes some time but it can be done.
+1 on Mike Callaway. He was a great help. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Aug 2013 9:31 pm
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I always thought of these as single raise or single lower instruments. With that restriction, here's how I tuned my Speedy West D-10:
I know that people have ways of raising and lowering a string, but this simpleton approach is very smooth and stable. It works great for the traditional mid-century country music sound.
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