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Topic: Emmons "Monster Licks" |
Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 22 Feb 2013 5:02 pm |
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| I have decided to work on the Buddy Emmons Pat Martino "Monster Licks" which are octave like chromatic licks that require a string spacing that I must learn. These positions challenge my muscle memory. It's like starting all over. I teach guitar and mandolin, bass and steel. I always go on about "Go slow, play it right, no matter how slow it takes to get it right" to all my students. I'm learning to practice what I preach about practice. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2013 11:48 am
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| Yes the power of the octave. it's a tonality I often forget to utilize. Thanks for reminding me. |
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Chris Buchanan
From:
Macomb, IL
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Posted 24 Feb 2013 12:17 pm
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What are these Monster Licks?
_________________
GFI Ultra S-10, Nashville 112, stuff. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 24 Feb 2013 12:29 pm
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Here's a link to the tabs:
http://www.buddyemmons.com/monsters.htm
Play them in your basement, think you've got them, then try doing one of these live, in time and in tune at speed on a live gig in front of 300 or more people! Very humbling and remember the man was playing these with ease while smiling (no tense face).
Greg |
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Chris Buchanan
From:
Macomb, IL
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Posted 24 Feb 2013 12:41 pm
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Thanks Greg. I've learned a lot from your site. Much appreciated!
_________________
GFI Ultra S-10, Nashville 112, stuff. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Don Drummer
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2013 5:09 pm
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| Hey folks, it's getting better and more enjoyable. When you play these licks slow there is a Tonic to Major 7th sound that is quite pleasant in certain context. It is not always outside sounding. That was a suprise to me. Looking forward to the next 9 years of doing this. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2013 3:03 am
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The technical term for it is "octave displacement", where you'll find it in Martino's own materials, Guitar Player Magazine columns, Eric Johnson's done a section on it in his videos, and there's probably a wealth of legitimate (non-guitar)  teachings. The simplest form is just a descending or ascending scale, but with notes that jump from lower to higher octaves and back, but it "works" to a certain extent on other licks, usually the more cliched or standard the better. Your ear tends to hear pitches better than the octave they're in, in isolation, but when it's combined it's a way of adding some weirdness to the familiar. And it's a lot easier to do on a guitar than on a C6th tuning, where all those intervals creep around from string to string on their own without any help from Pat Martino to begin with. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 26 Jul 2013 11:19 am the guitar original?
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Can anyone post the Pat Marino version of the lick (as BE seems to credit the lick to Marino).
Thanks! ... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 26 Jul 2013 12:53 pm
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JD, just do a Google search for Pat Martino's chromatic forms for guitar. I think a fellow named Dan Adler has them on his site.
i did some stuff on my blog about octave displacement. there's a great little lick that Tommy Morrell used to play that uses it in a simpler form than Emmons. Buddy is such a devil with that lick!
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 26 Jul 2013 2:29 pm
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Thanks Mike.
You aged, I see. You didn't have that mustache a few years ago! 
I was hoping to see/hear Pat Marino play, apply this concept in his playing... in order to get an idea of what Emmons originally heard.
Interestingly, with all the Steel Guitar talent in BE's generation and what immediately followed, I never heard any other steel great use it the concept.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 26 Jul 2013 2:44 pm
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| J D Sauser wrote: |
Thanks Mike.
You aged, I see. You didn't have that mustache a few years ago!
I was hoping to see/hear Pat Marino play, apply this concept in his playing... in order to get an idea of what Emmons originally heard.
Interestingly, with all the Steel Guitar talent in BE's generation and what immediately followed, I never heard any other steel great use it the concept.
... J-D. |
JD, that's Mike, Djunior. He's 7 years old--great moustache for his age!
The most effective use of the concept of octave displacement comes in the form of taking melodies and rearranging certain notes to be in a different octave. Buddy's use of it was more show than anything particularly musical.
Here is an example of Bruce Hornsby using the concept very effectively with Thelonious Monk's "Straight, No Chaser":
https://soundcloud.com/hoopii/straight-no-chaser-hornsby
Here's a little Tommy Morrell lick that you can hear him play here at 3:01: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9Bq4p8xMFs
The lick is played over a V7 chord, so for this version of Boot Heel Drag, the lick goes over E7:
This tab is for C6 tuning:
| Tab: |
E--12------------11--10-----------9--8----------7--6-------------5 etc.
C-----------------------------------------------------------------
A-----------------------------------------------------------------
G-----------------------------------------------------------------
E-------12--11------------10--9----------8--7-----------6--5------
C-----------------------------------------------------------------
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_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 26 Jul 2013 3:11 pm
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evidently "just" a chromatic "run down" masked by the fact that octaves are used alternately:
E, E-Eb, Eb-D, D-C#, C#-C, C-B, B-Bb... etc
BE, being more creatively "free" naturally interrupted the sequence and found new starting points again and again and going:
E, Eb-D, C#-C, B-Bb... etc (without doubling up on the note when switching octave.
I looked up the pages you suggested, but I still don't read and doubt I ever will.
I have searched myself tired on youtube to find and example Pat Martino play his version of the "lick", but to no avail.
Your son looks good, Mike.
My "standard" guitars incidentally all have "moustaches" (Selmer/Maccaferri/Favino)
Good to have talked to you again after so many years I think it's been.
Thanks! ... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 26 Jul 2013 4:44 pm
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| J D Sauser wrote: |
BE, being more creatively "free" naturally interrupted the sequence and found new starting points again and again and going:
E, Eb-D, C#-C, B-Bb... etc (without doubling up on the note when switching octave.
.....
Good to have talked to you again after so many years I think it's been.
Thanks! ... J-D. |
Buddy used Pat's system of displacing scale notes in 3 octaves, with each note being in a different octave. You could go on endlessly doing this kind of thing, but I think it's much hipper when it is done to a melody instead of just a chromatic scale. I have been fooling around with playing the head to Donna Lee with octave displacement, but it is very tough to do.
I am a very big fan of Martino for many years and you can hear this kind of stuff peppered throughout his playing, but I am having a difficult time thinking of a solid example. I'll get back to you....
Good to see you again.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Jim Smith
From:
Midlothian, TX, USA
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 27 Jul 2013 1:52 pm
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The "lick" or "phrase" if you so may want to call it is applied "here and there" over a variety of chords and progression. Being essentially a chromatic (half tone) run it can technically fit of ANYthing as well as being dissonant over EVERYthing.
Tab of HOW it was done will thus give little information on WHERE and WHY... or better, what BE's musical thinking was. Listening to examples, once one has understood the basic concept and one or two way how to play it, would seem more fruitful. THAT's why, given that BE credits Pat Martino for the IDEA, I was hoping to find an example or two of Pat's rendition, because I wanted to pick on him like BE did in order to get a better idea of what was on BE's mind. Finally, BE did not learn it from tab, I am 99.99% certain and I have a suspicion I could be on the safe side to bet that neither did Mr. Martino.
But yes, the BE.com tab at least shows HOW he did it... but good luck with taking that alone to a jam!
I don't listen much to Pat Martino. While I can hear that he is an Jazz extraordinary his approach to Jazz does not trigger much in me... he "speaks" another language than the one which inspires me. Matter of tastes (others might prefer to suspect that I am just to dumb to "understand" his approach. Hey, MAY BE! ).
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Bob Knetzger
From:
Kirkland, WA USA
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Posted 27 Jul 2013 9:56 pm
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| Check out Part Martino's autobiography, "Here and Now!"--beside the fascinating story of recovering from an aneurism and relearning to play the guitar, in the back is a walk thru of his approach to the guitar with a very intersting way of thinking of the fretboard and how simple augmented and diminished forms present other chords by changing just one note chromatically. Pat: "Chromatic intermediates intertwine across the entire fretboard!" |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 28 Jul 2013 1:18 pm
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I love Pat Martino.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 28 Jul 2013 1:56 pm Interesting!
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| Bob Knetzger wrote: |
| Check out Part Martino's autobiography, "Here and Now!"--beside the fascinating story of recovering from an aneurism and relearning to play the guitar, in the back is a walk thru of his approach to the guitar with a very intersting way of thinking of the fretboard and how simple augmented and diminished forms present other chords by changing just one note chromatically. Pat: "Chromatic intermediates intertwine across the entire fretboard!" |
Thanks! Google returned this:
http://truefire.com/blog/guitar-lessons/simplifying-fretboard/
http://truefire.com/tftv/?channel=tfu17&videofile=tfu/tfu17/tfu17martino20vo
Really, it's the concept of the PDEAL Steel Guitar taken from a different "view angle"... which is the looking at only 3 notes at a time. In PSG (ESPECIALLY since C6th got pedals) "we" look at every Pedal/Lever change and it's result across ALL 10 or 12 strings. Yet, ANY of the usually 4 or 5 notes repeated across all stings can be looked at as a root to "a" chord... and then, we could even play with the idea of looking at notes which are NOT present as a root (given that the bass will play the root) and see what more cords can come up inside that "big" chord we tend to see exclusively. Any on half step change (pedal/lever pull/release) WILL spell new chordS inside the big picutre...
I must admit I have been guilty of overlooking this for years until that I now picked up standard guitar intensively and had to realize that "they" more often than not play around 2,4 note chords that are not always covering all 6 stings. It seems limited by the limited amount of fingers one has on the left hand and how much contortion one can possibly produce effectively... but then, it becomes an advantage because there is much more being used with less strings.
I have often wondered WHY most standard guitar players seem to relatively quickly become more musically effective than steel guitar aficionados. Just go into a music store and hear them "fiddle" around with guitars and amps... and then, compare it to the wast ineptitude displayed at the booths at steel guitar conventions. And learning to play guitar now, after one and a half decades dedicated to steel guitar, I must say that I don't find standard guitar any less difficult than steel or pedal steel guitar. Sure, I am bringing with me 15 years of "music" and "knowledge", but in just 14 months now, I have seen things, that I now must admit I must have almost "purposefully" omitted or closed my eyes against (and no, I still don't use the scale approach). I look more at roots and EVERY degree of each chord I play, and I carry that over to my arpeggio based approach to soloing, also ID'ing the notes surrounding the arpeggio notes I use to "flirt" with the arpeggio notes.
Solo playing has always been somewhat of an elusive art to me. To me, it had and still HAS to be the ability to play what ever I WANT, as freely as when I hum, whistle or just silently generate music inside me. To put that down "freely" and fluently, maybe even faster than one can possibly whistle, has always been my problem. And since I always refused to do it the other way around, using some theory based "device" that would MAKE me SOUND LIKE I was freely improvising, but in essence would make me play in a pre-organized pattern had me struggle for a long time.
At the end yes, one has to have a BASE from which one can roam but also find "back home" safely.
Since the music I gravitate to is very chord based, using the arpeggios evidently seems to provide me with those bases but these can move around quickly during a tune's progression.
YET... I now am coming to a point which reminds me of something a gentleman in Boca Raton, FL (like location was important, but I forgot his name) ones told me in response to mine asking him about HOW he approaches his solo playing (on keyboards), which was evidently totally fluid and free.
He fumbled around for a while on the keys trying to formulate an answer. And let me add that this was a highly educated Master in Architecture, very well spoken and able to formulate other matters in a very understandable way. Anyways, after some attempts he said: "well, I guess you can say that after a while, it ALL becomes CHROMATIC".
I stuck with me for years, although I could never really do anything with it. But now, that I only start to fairly fluidly "see" my arpeggios and play around with and around them, it becomes evident to me, that what (hopefully) WILL happen is that I will forget about them and move fluently in a chromatic way.
Maybe the only scale I will ever learn (although I must admit that I do use the diminished scale as an underline guide to or across arpeggios of some chords) would be the Chromatic "scale"... and there is only ONE for ALL keys 
Django Reinhart and his heirs, whom I idolize quite a bit is/are mostly arpeggio BASED improvisors, but looking at Django, you will hear lines of with successions of over twelve half step increments... just with different starting points as lines, as "licks" and connectors to or THRU other chords. Looking at his playing, it SEEMS to become evident to me, that while he was an arpeggio based improvisor, he must have "lost" track of his arpeggios at least at times and gone "free" for lines at a time. That's probably the goal too.
But then, like I seem to see from above linked articles, people like Mr. Martino developed upon that too, gained awareness of their "chromatism" and developed further control from there.
I should rather play a little now. Ha!
Thanks! ... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 28 Jul 2013 4:56 pm
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JD, I think the point that you are missing about "using some theory based "device" that would MAKE me SOUND LIKE I was freely improvising", to quote you, is that those devices expand your hearing. Can you tell me that your ears are open wide enough to include chromaticism and complex harmonic language without having done the work to get those sounds into your head? Because really that is what it is all about. There is much to gain by studying music, particularly jazz harmony.
We learn that language in order to be able to speak it. It is not something that just freely pours out of you accidentally. Besides, in moments of improvisation, the intuitive or creative side of your brain should be dominant over the logical or rational part of your brain, but we need to know our instruments and the language well enough to create at a high level.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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