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Topic: Why? Strat Up tuning Guitar Ok but not PSG |
Stuart Legg
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 5:43 pm |
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Why is it that guitar players, recording engineers and the general public never seem to have a problem with the standard guitar tuned straight up?
While most everyone in the industry and specifically Steel players get anal and downright hateful about how a PSG is tuned.
It's not the way you tune, it's the way you play! |
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Tim Konecky
From:
Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 6:38 pm
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You mean tuning every string straight up to 440? Is that what you mean? And what do you mean by hateful?
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Fender Deluxe
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Scott Duckworth
From:
Etowah, TN Western Foothills of the Smokies
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 6:43 pm
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The basic answer is that pedal steels don't sound right tuned "straight up" exactly on the note. Try it... tune every open string and every change exactly on the note name. And I'm not being hateful, just trying to be helpful... 
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 6:50 pm
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| OK let's not dwell on the word hateful and get back to the question again "Why does it sound OK on the guitar and not on the steel? |
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Tim Konecky
From:
Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 6:55 pm
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Well, I would guess the best player in the world is going to still sound bad if his instrument isn't in tune with itself and the rest of the instrumentation.
The pedal steel is a complex instrument with a number of things going on that most instruments don't have to deal with. Intonation from one change to the other, cabinet drop, etc. It's an art and a science tuning the beast.
If it just had six strings and no raises or lowers it simplifies the equation a bit.
And I'm not sure if I've met a (passionate) steeler that is hateful of the tuning process. It's what we've signed up for and are thankful to have found a "bug" that not everyone can wrap their head around.
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Tim Konecky
From:
Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 7:02 pm
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| Stuart Legg wrote: |
| OK let's not dwell on the word hateful and get back to the question again "Why does it sound OK on the guitar and not on the steel? |
I'm going to have to let some more experienced folk chime in on this. I'm sure there is some science behind the reasoning.
I've typically used a cheat sheet in the past but have recently (finally) gotten to the point of where I just try to tune the beats out of my opens and changes... who the heck knows where those end up in the end... 441... 436... 444... just get to where it sounds good I guess.
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Jackson Blackjack
Fender Deluxe
Peavey Nashville 400 |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 7:27 pm
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The guitar has frets so in theory if you tune it up to sound good in any chord position then it can only be tuned Strat UP. Since it has frets in theory you can’t play out of tune.
Where as the steel is a fretless instrument (fret markers are not frets) and you can play out of tune regardless of how you tune.
I try to tune so I’m as close to equal temperament throughout the whole range of the neck as possible.
The idea being if I place the bar straight across the neck at each fret marker (as my ear dictates) each note under the bar with or without pedals or levers will be as close to equal tempered to each other as possible.
Then in theory I should sound at least as good as the guitar player. |
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Steve Pawlak
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 7:40 pm
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Tempered tuning is actually a factor in tuning six string guitars.
Here is a picture of a neck that has frets to compensate for the effect
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 8:15 pm
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Cabinet drop for one thing, right?
Also, considering most guitars have staggered (or moveable) saddles to make up for intonation, while PSGs have a straight bridge, it makes sense.
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 9:30 pm
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Guitars tune straight up because they can't retune for every chord pocket: therefore the compromises of ET hold an undeniable appeal. JI sounds better, even the developers of ET admitted that.
The pedal steel sounds better ON ITS OWN in JI, or some variation. But as soon as you throw a piano in the mix, you can hear the thirds clash. And Steve's Strat pic? Fine for that key. other keys will need a different fretboard.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 9:48 pm
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Tim K:
| Quote: |
| Well, I would guess the best player in the world is going to still sound bad if his instrument isn't in tune with itself and the rest of the instrumentation. |
You mean like Buddy Emmons sounded when he tuned straight up, 440?
http://buddyemmons.com/_board/00000402.htm
and Buddy's reply:
http://buddyemmons.com/_board/00000406.htm
http://www.buddyemmons.com/ABArchive1.htm#tuning
I found this quote interesting:
"The way I tune, strings 6, 8, and 10 are no problem intonation wise except they sound out of tune until I get with a band. When I used to tune them by ear, the opposite was true. They sounded fine until I played with other instruments."
Source:
http://buddyemmons.com/_board/0000031d.htm
Edit: PS, here is an old thread discussing these concerns:
http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/005302.html
Doug
2nd Edit: One more from Big E - this is the Q+A I was initially looking for, but did not know where to find it. It is from this page, down a few questions (although supposedly they originated somewhere on the this forum):
http://www.amug.org/~a249/qa.html
Q: On the forum we have discussed tuning problems for a long while. As a matter of fact it is an ongoing topic. Would you care to share with us "How you currently tune" with the band, especially where keyboards are present. Lets look at E9th first:
Do you tune all strings, pedals straight up 440 ?
Do you use a tuner or harmonic soundings?
BE: Ideally I like to be 440 all the way or as close as my guitar will permit. 438 to 440 on thirds is acceptable for for me. Sometimes I'll tune the thirds at around 438 to keep from snapping the high G# if conditions are where I think the temperature might get cooler. The length of a rod on an all pull guitar and its expansion factor determines the pitch of the note (blow dry your rods for 5 seconds and see how flat the pitch becomes when you engage a raise pedal). From there, I tune with harmonics which is my gauge for cabinet drop of any guitar. That way I'm tuning to all the guitar's gremlins.
I will be tuning my Legrande lll right at 440 under average and controlled temperature conditions. I know it's a bear to have to play 440 when you first play by yourself but in time your ear gets used to it and someone else's thirds start sounding flat. Meanwhile you'll be in tune and will have made friends with all the fixed pitch instrument players in the band. Of course if you don't like anyone in the band, tune any way you want.
Q: Would tuning across the board to 440 make it unnecessary to tune sharp to 442.50 the way Jeff Newman and some others do or would that be too sharp to use?
BE: Sharp is sharp no matter how you slice it. I've never understood the theory of being sharper than the instruments you're playing with. Aside from that, even tuning 440 as I do, the guitars I've played throughout the years have never truly been in tune. A problem in detuning that is rarely discussed is lowering strings which releases tension on the cabinet and raises the pitch of some strings. The 6th or G# is vulnerable which is another good reason to tune it to 438. Problems can also come from other sources. I've blown several accounts constantly tuning my guitar only to find out the fretboard had been photographed at an angle that threw the scale off. Another guitar had a fretboard positioned wrong. I had a Quadraverb that had a chorus on the reverb.
Q: I've only been at the PSG for several months now, and it seems like I'll never understand the subtleties of tuning. I got hold of your "Harmonic Tune-Up" tape recently, and in it you advocate RAISING the G#s slightly above what the ear makes us think is in tune. This contrasts with what you've been saying in this forum and with other approaches. Am I missing something here?
BE: I used the slightly sharp to the ear idea at that time as a compromise between true 440 and tuning the pleasing sound to the ear. I too had a hard time dealing with the 440 sound and tuned the compromised way for several years. Although it worked, it still left many pedal combinations that would not tune up properly, especially on the C6 tuning. It was an attempt to get a pleasing sound closer to standard pitch for those like myself who couldn't stand the straight 440 sound. Now that I tune 440, I feel uncomfortable trying to convince others that it's the only way. All I can say is that knowing each note will on the money has made a big difference in the way I use pedals.
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Last edited by Douglas Schuch on 23 Jul 2013 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 9:55 pm
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I think this is about as close as you can get to equal temperament all over the PSG neck.
Equal Tempered allowing for cabinet drop and increase.
1. Straight across the neck open =441
2. D lever that lowers the D# to D =441
3. E lever that lowers the E’s to D#=442
4. A&B pedals both engaged G# to A=440 and B to C#=440
5. A&F pedal and lever both engaged E’s to F=440
6. B&C pedals both engaged the B to C#=440 and the E to F#=440
Note* set a little cheap chromatic tuner to 441 and then go to 442 and then go to 440. Just a few minutes and you're done!
This results in:
At the nut (open)
no pedals or levers an E9 chord all strings across the neck at 441
A&B with or without the D lever engaged an Amaj chord with all strings across the neck at 440
A&F engaged a C#maj chord with all strings across the neck at 440
B&C engaged an F#m chord with all strings at 440
E lever engaged a B6 or G#m chord with all the strings across the neck at 442
Any other pedals or levers follow the same chord combination philosophy he has set forth here.
Last edited by Stuart Legg on 23 Jul 2013 10:36 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 10:15 pm
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| John Scanlon wrote: |
Cabinet drop for one thing, right?
Also, considering most guitars have staggered (or moveable) saddles to make up for intonation, while PSGs have a straight bridge, it makes sense. |
John No amount of fret staggering or saddle adjustment will ever get you on a standard guitar where you can have a slightly flatted 3rd for every chord possibility.
They have had this saddle ajustment argument here before and it was proven by the manufacturers not necessary on a PSG and would have no bearing at all on the tuning of a PSG. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 10:29 pm
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| Stuart Legg wrote: |
John No amount of fret staggering or saddle adjustment will ever get you on a standard guitar where you can have a slightly flatted 3rd for every chord possibility.
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No, Stuart. I saw one goofball in the 70s (or 80s) who had modular interchangeable fretboards, one for each key.
Never understood why that didn't catch on....
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 23 Jul 2013 10:53 pm
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Lane That had to be right up there with the Guitorgan. 
I do think robot tuners would be a great addition to the PSG. I mean just for the open strings. It would be asking too much for pedals and levers.
I think real time pitch correction in amps would also be a great asset. |
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John De Maille
From:
On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.
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Posted 24 Jul 2013 6:17 am
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| Stuart Legg wrote: |
| John Scanlon wrote: |
Cabinet drop for one thing, right?
Also, considering most guitars have staggered (or moveable) saddles to make up for intonation, while PSGs have a straight bridge, it makes sense. |
John No amount of fret staggering or saddle adjustment will ever get you on a standard guitar where you can have a slightly flatted 3rd for every chord possibility.
They have had this saddle ajustment argument here before and it was proven by the manufacturers not necessary on a PSG and would have no bearing at all on the tuning of a PSG. |
Isn't that why the strings on a PSG are tempered, because the nut and the changer are parallel with each other, instead of having a canted bridge or adjustment saddles on a standard guitar. That, makes sense to me. As a kid, I inadvertently adjusted the bridge on my six string guitar, parallel to the nut and it would not play in tune no matter what I did. I took it back to the music store and the tech re-adjusted it and then it played correctly. I was young and didn't know about that. Anyway, it makes sense to me why standard guitars are tuned 440 and PSG's are temper tuned. I've tried tuning 440 on my steel and I don't like it. It doesn't sound right to me.
Last edited by John De Maille on 24 Jul 2013 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tim Konecky
From:
Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2013 6:22 am
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| Quote: |
| Of course if you don't like anyone in the band, tune any way you want. |
HA!
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Jackson Blackjack
Fender Deluxe
Peavey Nashville 400 |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 24 Jul 2013 11:46 am
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There is simply no facts to back up a claim that tuning Newman is done so because there is no fine adjustment for each string on your PSG.
John Do you really think you could have left the bridge straight up and down on that standard guitar and tuned Newman and it would have sounded fine? |
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Bo Legg
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Posted 24 Jul 2013 12:26 pm
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If a string doesn't fret true the string will get further and further out of tune as you move from fret mark to fret mark up the neck.
If it were tuned 440 or 438 each would be effected equally as you moved up the neck. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2013 1:40 pm
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Stuart, this is my take on your original question.
Have you ever played with a guitarist who tunes (straight up) after every song, and yet rarely plays in tune? Or a more experienced one who tunes once a set and never hits a sour note? One of the skills separating the amateur from Pro on 6 string is the knowledge and experience to make the near-microscopic fingering, angle, and pressure adjustments that make various chord shapes sound in tune. A good guitarist uses his ear and is constantly adjusting, and this on an instrument that is basically tuned to one open chord. While "tuned straight up", I truly suspect those minute adjustments temper the various chords to one degree or another while being fingered. No way to know how far each chord has been tempered to the players ear without some elaborate metering....
While steelers have the same learning curve as far as minute adjustments to bar positioning and pressure, the "open" tuning has to accommodate a whole slew of different chords, and the adjustment or "sweetening" of any one chord tone, say thirds, to meet the taste of the player or listener's ear, means that those tones are in a different location, string or pedal, for different chord or pedal/lever involvement. Look at how many players use compensators...
In a way, pedal steel is like tuning and playing 5,6, or more instruments stacked on top of each other... and almost by definition requires a compromise if there is any desire for a beatless (or nearly) sound.
Unlike Buddy, I can usually temper, tamper, or tweeze my steel similar to the Newman chart style to sound good by itself, and still blend consonantly with other instruments in an ensemble. Maybe that's just me.
I have seen numerous posts and comments over the years along the lines of "forget tuners, tempers, and JI/ET... we (or they) just tuned up and played in the old days and never had any complaints."
First, the copedants and setups were quite a bit simpler in times past, and second, not to ruffle feathers, but an awful lot of live and recorded playing I've heard from the past was woefully out of tune. In fact, I think the whiny, pitchy sound of some earlier pedal steel contributed to the disdain some listeners held for country music in general.
Playing in tune is and should be a real concern for any ensemble player, and the modern pedal steel presents some challenges for sure. Just look at how much energy Buddy has put into refining his approach over the years!
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Michael Strauss
From:
Delray Beach,Florida
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Posted 24 Jul 2013 2:09 pm
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Gibson has it's Min-ETuneTM robot tuner. It started on their high-end guitars and are now offering it on some of their less expensive models. Does anyone see this technology being adopted for use on pedal steel?
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2013 2:33 pm
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| My Zion Tele has an Earvana nut. Seems to make a pleasant difference, Chords are sweeter. On my Fender Tele, The Billy Goat, I tune the 3rd and 6th strings ever so slightly flat. On my Kline Uni, I first tune somewhat Newmanish, then put away the tuner, and finish up by ear. |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 24 Jul 2013 4:58 pm
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I can spell my last name upside down and backwards 6637 and I think that is the secret to tuning.
Last edited by Stuart Legg on 24 Jul 2013 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 24 Jul 2013 5:06 pm
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unless you also have a straightocaster.
and a steel straightjacket |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2013 5:57 pm
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Stuart, I honestly don't know how ANYBODY really tunes, other than myself.
When I first started playing, I tuned "by ear" to whoever seemed to be most consistently in tune in the band. I could hear some sourness here and there, and some pedal/lever combos that were... iffy... and I kept after it. When Newman's first chart came out ( that he came to by averaging the tuning choices of local Nashville "iconic players") I noticed an immediate and unequivocal improvement. Either my ear was not as well developed as that of the "iconic group", or I was missing some tuning tweezes, but regardless, I sounded much more in tune with the bands except at open position. I kept experimenting, and eventually ended up with "tuner offsets" very similar to the Newman charts, but a couple of cents higher to provide a sweetened open tuning. (And presumably combat cabinet drop, or whatever mystical issue was present in my guitars).
Somewhat later, Jeff came out with his revised chart, which moved all the numbers up a couple of cents. I have had very good results on most guitars by starting with his charts and adjusting from there. I've heard many players who expressed much the same progression in finding their tuning methodology.
This leads me to believe that at least at some point the players Jeff sampled were using tempered tunings.
During the same period, I always tuned my 6 strings "straight up" to a tuner, and usually lowered the third string by a couple of cents. (These were usually three-barrel Teles, though, which is a whole 'nother can 'o worms.)
I've always thought the mechanical nature of pedals and levers kind of mandates a different way of approaching tuning, from a lap steel or "stand up" guitar.
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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
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