The Newman Universal Tuning

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

Asking for opinions about this tuning especially from those who've used it.

I'm an old guy with a D10 and an S10 considering going to one guitar - fewer strings to change, simpler, lighter gear, etc. Not playing comercially, just for my own love of the instrument.

Would appreciate your inputs.
Thanks,
bk

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

In my opinion they are great fun to play!
If there's anyone in your area with one it would be great if you could try one first.
If you are seriously married to the 9th string-D, you probably won't like it (We raise string 9 from B to D on a lever).
I think the S12U concept is great.
I played a Jeff Newman 7x4 setup for years with bands playing country, country rock, and western swing.

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

Thanks Pete, I know you've been posting on here a long time, always liked your input, especially this one.

I confess a love for the 9th D string; that's one of the things I'm leery about. The pocket 2 up from the no pedals root, with the D string as root gives very nice combos with A or B pedals or both. There are also valuable uses for the D string in minor chords; the minor 6th pockets are really useful.

I've ordered the Newman DVD and CD/tab for his setup and figure I'll do a lot of looking at those and imagining the foot/knee moves before committing.

Thanks,
bk

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

When you think about it you'll notice that you really only lose the ability play strings 9 and 10 at the same time. So if string-9 is your low root you still get everything above it.

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Bob,

Several thoughts and ideas. First, the Newman Coped is a bit more of a change from a standard D-10 pedal arrangement. You might prefer to stick closer to that. Many Uni's do. Some include the 4 pedal, some eliminate it, but many use the same pedal layout as a standard D-10.

Tony Glassman tried switching to a Uni, and came up with an interesting coped using a lock - you can read about it here:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=220213&highlight=universal

I bought the Zum from him with this coped, and here are my observations:

Biggest advantage is you get the 9th string D on E9, which most Universal tunings lose.

I figure this coped is for someone use to a D-10 and who wants to continue to play the same way, there is little "re-learning" with this coped - basically, you get the equiv. of the D and the G on top, but neither is right next to the second string, so you have to learn to hit the right string for those notes. E9 is identical. Pedals can be set up with whatever coped you are use to or want.

With extra knee levers centered over the B6 pedals, you can get a bunch of changes, same as a D-10

Drawbacks: One can not go quickly from E9 to B6, or "mix and match" within the two tunings. It is two separate tunings, like a D-10, not the "one big tuning" some Uni players prefer. As with any E9, one can just lower the E's and get a B6 tuning, but not with the same grips you would use with the lock on.

If pursuing this route, make sure the locking lever is a stout one. I had some problems with it not quite getting the same degree of pull each time it was engaged, and thus strings would be slightly out of tune. There are brands with much more secure locks (note, this was an add-on lock, not a Zumsteel part).

I am not sure there is a whole lot of weight saved - there is just as much metal under the guitar as a D-10, and the body is only slightly smaller than a D-10. For a light weight D-10 replacement, these make more sense to me (good luck finding one!):

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=240833

There are lots of light weight S-10's these days, but no one is making a fly-weight D-10.

I have switched to a more standard Uni, without the 9th string D, as I am still pretty new to steel guitar and decided I liked the idea of having both tunings and their changes available "on the fly". I do not have years of experience I would "lose" by changing the coped now. I still have the option to "lock in" the B6 tuning - lock works much better now that it only lowers the E's, and also drops string 2 from D to C#. I then can use my extra knee levers (one is the typical pedal 4).

Good luck whatever route you take!

Doug
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mike nolan · From: Forest Hills, NY USA

Take a look at Carl Dixon's LKL2.
I've been fooling with a U-12 for a couple of years now, and I really like it, but when I'm playing straight country, I do miss the d string. I added this lever, and things opened up some... it is kind of like an Ext E9 mode lever. Since my Williams has a lock lever ( which I never use ) I might put Carl's lever there.....

http://b0b.com/tunings/CarlDixon.html

I looked at Tony's approach, which is well thought out, but I do like the one big tuning approach.

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Tony,

I believe that part is a De-Sta-Co toggle clamp, per this thread:

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=190488&highlight=overcenter

It is evidently what Bruce uses, and it works great for lowering my E's and the 2nd string to C#. When it also lowered the 9 and 10 string, though, I could engage it, tune the guitar, unlock it, then lock it back, and it would not come to the same tune - perhaps just a little too much tension for it? They make these in many different sizes, so perhaps a larger one? When not engaged, the lever had a fair amount of "wobble" in it, and I think the variance was due to the exact angle it was at when engaged. Again, it seems to work fine for locking 3 lowers.

I could usually get it pretty close by putting a little pressure on the locked pedal and wiggling the toggle clamp, but it was not real precise. Just my experience.

These are readily available over the internet (although there are additional parts need for the application that either you or Bruce fabricated), and available in many sizes. A slightly bigger one would no doubt be better for the purpose.

My point, anyway, is just make sure that whatever lock is used, that it is up to the task of locking 5 strings - a bit more work than just the two most Uni's lock in place.

I think the coped is a brilliant idea for someone who has normally played D-10 and wants to reduce size/weight.

Doug
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Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Doug, did you fully press the pedal before engaging the clamp and then let the strings fall back to pitch?

De-Sta-Co does make bigger toggles, but I never noticed the problems you had holding tune. I wonder if that toggle fatigued over time because of the heavy load being placed on it. I know when Bruce and I initially talked about the concept, he was concerned about an over-load possibility. So, that is likely the case.

I can't remember if there was enough room for a larger switch, but that would be the next logical next step. BTW, the other parts were all made by him. He supplied the clamp too

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

Tony,

Yes, I would push the pedal past where the lock engaged, throw the lever, then gently ease off the pedal. Perhaps it was a bit of wear from the load - I used it about a year before switching my coped around, which reduced the load on it. It works fine now with the reduced tension.

Doug
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Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

First I appreciate all the input from all of you. There's a lot to think about there.

As I play these days, with the thought of losing the D string in combination with the B on my E9th tuning, I'm having some second thoughts. It'll take time to look at all the options, but right now, it looks like the Newman tuning offers less E9th, and a lot of B6th (at least that's my initial take pending having a look at Jeff's universal tuning material that's headed my way). But I use a lot of those 2 bottom strings on the E9th not only for chord positions but a huge amount of single scale notes used to go up and down the fretboard.

Also, it's looking like it a LKR would be virtually unusable when looking at it as a single tuning as opposed to using it as an E9th mode and folding up the LKR to get to the B9th mode. In that vein, I took a look at GFI's version of their universal setup on their website and was a bit surprised when I saw both the KL's for lowering and raising the E's to D# and F. (The Newman tuning has only 3 KL's and probably one vertical; the GFI has 4KL's + vertical)

Also I use the boo-wah pedal occasionally just to get to the low A chord notes, but I see it's now placed next to what's usually referred to as the C6th B pedal (where it does make more sense).

So I have lots to think about. Please continue to offer what thought you might have and straighten me out if I'm off target so far.

Thanks,
bk

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

It's kinda like... You've been driving an F250 all your life, and now your thinking about getting a Corvette.
You're not going to pull stumps or pick up a load of hay with the 'Vette, but they sure are fun to rip around town in!
Jeff Newman would challenge you to name a song that can't be played on an S12U.

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

Pete, Ken - conceded from the gitgo; Jeff could play rings around me and then some.

I still leaning on the Jeff when I receive and go over his DVD for folks considering his tuning, and the tab and rhythym tracks for those who have it. I won't make a move until I do.

And have you looked at his YouTube with Lloyd Green at the ISGA playing 'Look at Us'? Watching that many times is one of the things that got me into to this thread in the first place. Watch his knee lever moves during it - LL and RR pretty often.

(and a long time ago I drove a Porsche) Smile

I got it up to . . . I guess I better not say.

Ken Metcalf · From: San Antonio Texas USA

I like the Someone to give my love to video
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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes

Ollin Landers · From: Willow Springs, NC

I have never played a D-10. I went straight from a S-10 and SD-10 to a SD-12 with the Newman tuning.

It's true Jeff did not have a LKR but I understand at one time he experimented with it.

I have a LKR and I have no trouble reaching all the B6 pedal changes. It took a little tweaking on the height of the pedals relative to each other and adjusting the LKL and LKR angles. I have them sort of slanted to the right. This allows my left foot to reach everything and I have no issues rocking off/on pedal 5 and 6.

When you get the Newman video for U-12 he explains in the usual Jeff fashion why he set it up the way he did. And like so many of the great players the setup was developed based on the way he played. It may not work for you.

I have recently begun to get out of thinking two seperate tunings. I find myself often drifting in and out of both tunings in the same song depending on what type of licks or chords I want to play.

I had a hard time doing that until I picked a song that had a lot of major chords along with 6th and 7th chords. I found I could drop out of the B6 tuning and play all the major phrases and licks in (E9) over the major chords and go right back to B6 when I needed to play 6th chords or phrases. You cant really do that on a D-10.

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

Nice post Ollin, really helpful. I'd like to end up with a guitar with a LKR that I can move up out of the way and have it not drop down; lacking that, I can probably get along without it.

I've just been through the Newman DVD the other day - nice talk at the begining. It's a good intro; doesn't look at the U12 as one tuning so much as it speaks to having both the E9th and a 6th tuning on one neck. Jeff's CD/tab course basically shows how the 6th tuning works for people who aren't already C6th players.

But I'm pretty sure I"m going to go that way. To get more insight about how it could be used as one tuning, I'm entering the pedals, knees and combinations on an old version of ClicTab on my PC to see what the possibilities are.

Over the next week or two I'll be looking at the GFI U12, talking about trade-in value of my GFI Ultra D10 and how to make it all work out. I'll be living with an E9th S10 after that's all started. So I guess Jeff lit the fire under me.

And Douglas Schuch, you put a lot of thought and time into that post and obviously have a lot of experience based on how you approach the universal. I appreciate all that very much. Thank you.

Thanks for all your comments,
bk

Chris Reesor · From: British Columbia, Canada

Ollin, perhaps you could post a photo of the knee lever arrangement on that Carter of yours, showing how the vertical and LKR are arranged so they can both be used with all the other pedals. BTW, I hope you are enjoying the guitar.
There was a thread not long ago about U12 as one big tuning with some excellent posts, esp. by Pete Burak. I've forgotten the title, and haven't time to hunt it up right now (a work day). Bob Kagy, you should see this thread, if you haven't already.

Chris
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Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins

Marco Schouten · From: Amsterdam, The Netherlands

Jan Visser invented a 10 string universal tuning. You can see it here:

http://www.promotamusic.com/folderIndex/folderHTML/JanVisserStemmingEnSetup.html

He uses 7 pedals and 7 knee levers.
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JCH SD-10 with BL XR-16 pickup, Sho-Bud Volume Pedal, Evidence Audio Lyric HG cables, Quilter Steelaire combo

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I too own an S10U.
It does not have the low E and B of an S12U.
I had a Shobud Pro-1 with 3x2, and had it upgraded to 7x5 by Jeff Suratt at Marrs Music (now Sho-Pro).

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

I play a U-12 ZumSteel, tuned to Jeff's tuning and the flow from E9th to B6th flows effortlessly. I play mostly country and Western swing and the transition couldn't be easier.
I don't have a lever lock because I like to change from one tuning to another while I'm playing a particular song. Just engaging my RKR lever lowers my E's and I'm good to go, immediately. I've been playing this set up for 10yrs, I don't think I'll ever go back to a D10 or an S10. It works for me.

Ollin Landers · From: Willow Springs, NC

I have an Excel File that I made up. It shows the intervals on my Zum U-12 copedent.

So far I have only done the pedals up position. The idea is to list the notes and the scale steps in the pedal up position. Then show how those intervals change when using various levers or pedals.

For instance string one on the 8th fret is a D note or the 2nd or 9th tone of C. My G Lever raises string one a 1/2 step so it becomes the b3rd or Eb.

I did this for all the strings including all the pedals and levers. It's a great exercise to familiarize yourself with what scale tones are available both with and without the pedals and levers.

This really helps when I'm trying to find melodies or if I want to build a particular chord. Such as find one of the major grips and add a 7th or 9th using either a string or a pedal/lever.

I know some of you old pros probably just think this in your head. Until I can do that the chart really helps the learning process.

Sonny Jenkins · From: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx

Ollin,,,Karlis Abolins used to have (free for the asking) a program called a guitar map. I still use it to help think through various copedent strategies.

Bob Kagy · From: Lafayette, CO USA

Sonny, thanks for posting that - I'd forgotten that I have a copy of Karlis' program; it's pretty useful. BTW I have a relative fiddle player who lives in NB too; you probably know Richard.
bk

Paul Redmond · From: Illinois, USA

I never missed that dastardly 9th string D after I switched to Uni tunings. It's far more effective in most cases to be able to selectively pull that B up to D on command. Since I'm mostly playing a short Uni (10-string) these days, I still have the advantage of having a G# as my 10th string and raising it to A along with 3 and 6. Jeff Newman once told me I'd never miss that 9th string D.....he was right.
PRR

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