Need help changing copedent on a push/pull...

Cameron Cochran · From: Kentucky, USA

I am getting ready to do a complete copedent overhaul on my Emmons p/p. I need two vertical knee levers and I am guessing I am going to need a good supply of springs, collars and all that other stuff that's under the hood. I have a couple questions.

1) Where do you buy quality push/pull parts?
2) Is there any p/p maintenance guide out there that you would suggest?

I realize that there are great p/p mechanics out there but I really want to learn how to do this on my own. If I am going to be the owner of a p/p it doesn't make any sense to me not to figure out how to take care of it.

Thank you all so much for any help you can give me.

Cameron Cochran

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

Emmons Guitar Co.......or forum P/P gurus:

Billy Knowles
Lynn Stafford
Doug Palmer
Mike Cass

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

'john lacey's wilderness guide' to the emmons push pull is very handy...
do a search for it.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

The Emmons company is probably the best bet for getting parts and the other guys listed also are very helpful and have parts. The push pull isn't really that hard to work on once you sorta understand how everything goes together and works. I did the same thing as you are going to do having never seen one before and it did take a little while. Changed an Emmons set up to Day in about four hours first time in ever did it. Now about an hour. The great thing about a push pull, once the changer is in tune, it's just a matter of swapping parts around. Smile

_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

I dunno. Working on an all-pull isn't that hard. Working on a push-pull, however, especially when you've never done so before, should be carefully considered.

I have seen SO MANY push-pulls that have, at the very least, been put out of adjustment by well-intentioned players who took one look at its underside and said, "Oh, what's all the fuss about? This is easy." And then they dive right in and end up wondering why the thing plays like an unoiled sewing machine.

I mean, I consider myself to have a pretty good mechanical mind. Heck, I even have a fully equipped shop here at home. Yet I still send all my push-pulls to a guru. Oh, sure, I'll tweak this and that but changing an entire copedant or adding knee levers, etc. is a job for the gifted.

Just sayin'.

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

Hi Cameron,

I'd highly recommend you purchase the booklet "Methodology And Practice In Pedal Steel Guitar" by Clem Schmitz. Clem used to own a steel guitar store and repair shop in Minneapolis.

In his booklet, Clem explains step by step (with photos) exactly how to adjust Emmons push-pull guitars with several clever little tricks that would take a very long time to figure out on your own. He also show you how to totally disassemble the rods and re-assemble them, which sounds like what you want to do.

He sells the book on eBay. It is currently listed as "Pedal Steel Guitar Methodology P/P Guide Booklet" for $15. This is a bargain!!
You may only need it once every 10 years or so, but you'll be glad you have it.

He also now sells a DVD listed as "Pedal Steel Guitar Methodology DVD P/P Guide", and a combo package "Pedal Steel Guitar Methodology P/P Book & DVD Package". I've not seen the DVD, so I can't comment on it, but it's very reasonably priced.

If you can't find it on E-Bay, you can contact Clem at: freedomsauce@bellsouth.net
--------------------------------------------
While it's true that it typically takes longer to change the pedal and knee lever setup of Emmons push/pull guitars than all-pull guitars, it is a myth that Emmons p/p guitars are difficult to adjust or keep in adjustment.

Emmons p/p guitars are different from all-pulls in that a small amount of slack is needed to allow the rods to both push and pull the changer fingers. The trick is creating just the right amount of slack. Once you have set up the rod-collars (and pedal stops) properly, it is unlikely you will have to touch the undercarriage again for many years-- if ever!

-Dave

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

A double ditto on Clem's book. Very helpful.
And while I think a mechanically observant type can make good sense out of Push-pull setup, this is one area where there's a very good reason some guys are considered to be "gurus". Some of the many personal tweezes they've come up with (different length cushioning springs, specific amount of slack, heatshrink on the raise hooks, and on and on) are difficult or impossible to imagine from just looking at the mechanism.
No discouragement toward setting one up ones' self, just saying a PP with a master's touch is a thing of beauty.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com

Sven Kontio · From: Sweden

What Mark and Dave said! Clem´s booklet is a must have for anyone with a push-pull.
However, his email address nowadays is freedomsauce@comcast.net

There are some well renowned people out there considered the best as far as pp adjustments and repairs of whom some were named in this post. I´d like to add Clem to that list. I don´t think there is any now living person in the world with as much knowledge of a pp than he has. Clem is THE guy to ask for help with the functionality of your push-pull.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I've played a few push/pulls in my day (not mine) that really played like crap. Those experiences are what made me never want to buy one. I suspect the owners got their hands in there and messed things up. But, I have played a few that my friend has that Lynn Stafford worked on. WOW!

While it is nice to know how to work on your own guitar, I think what you want to do would be best for someone that is really good at that kind of stuff. I am fairly mechanical minded too, and work on my all pull guitars, but I would never attempt to do a push/pull. There is such a big difference in an amateur job and a professional job when it comes to a push/pull.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Craig A Davidson · From: Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA

Since adding changes on a push-pull almost includes tearing the whole guitar apart, I would send it to one of the above mentioned parts sources like Mike Cass or Billy Knowles. Mike does fantastic work and is reasonable. I figure if he can assemble new guitars for Emmons he can surely do a push-pull. He did mine when I had one, plus work for two other friends of mine.

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Cameron, I disagree with some of the guys about working on your push pull. Now adding knee levers is another ball game and would let the guru do that but if your are just changing set up, I think you should get your hands wet, that is if your are mechanically adapted. Then if you mess it up, send it to someone in the know. Just don't go drilling holes and such. If you are going to play a push pull, then you should know how to work on one. I'm no guru by a long shot but both my push pulls i set up play smooth and easy and very positive which is how I like a guitar to play.
_________________
Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Peter Freiberger · From: California, USA

If you're adding two VKL's I would assume your guitar is already pretty crowded underneath. Since you are not all that far from Nashville, why not get in touch with someone like Mike Cass and see if he'd let you observe him working on your guitar. You'll get a properly set up instrument and undoubtedly learn a lot.

Mike Wheeler · From: Delaware, Ohio, USA

One more opinion here. TAKE PICTURES...LOTS OF PICTURES before you start disassembling anything on you guitar. And when you think you have enough, take a few more.

I bought a Universal 12 string push pull that wasn't set up to my copedant (6 pedal universal and I wanted 7 pedals). So, even though I had lots of experience with all pulls, and have tons of experience disassembling complex mailroom machines and rebuilding them, I was a bit intimidated. I bought Clem's DVD package and studied it for 3 days intensely. Then took over 30 detailed pictures of the undercarriage.

Then, with nervous anticipation I completely disassembled my guitar...right down to removing the changer for cleaning. It took almost 5 days to get everything back together the way I needed it to be. Even though the basic mechanisms were not hard to comprehend, I can't tell you how many times I took 2 steps forward, then 4 steps backwards. There are so many inter-related adjustments to keep track of that I was fighting frustration constantly.

And those shock springs!!! Getting the lengths right drove me crazy. That's something Clem didn't explain!

So, to say the gurus know the little nuances to make a push pull work perfectly is no understatement. Oh, I got my copedant changed and the guitar plays correctly, but not perfectly.

If I had it to do all over again, I'd send it to one of our incredible mechanics. We are so very fortunate to have them available.

Now I'm saving my nickles and dimes up to get the job done right. I learned a big lesson from this experience!
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Best regards,
Mike

Jerry Jones · From: Franklin, Tenn.

I've rebuilt a few push/pulls and I can say that it's very helpful to research the forum before you began. Study undercarriage images and take as many pics of your guitar as possible. Also helps to plan your approach and make reference drawings before you start.......drop some bread crumbs. Smile

It's a good idea to purchase a few dozen of the small allen wrenches as well as a healthy supply of set screws. Had one crank that was seized to the cross shaft and the set screw head was wallowed out Mad

..... so I now replace all crank set screws.

Lots of knowledgable push/pull folks here on the forum ready to help..... Good Luck!
_________________
Jerry Jones

Ken Byng · From: Southampton, England

All of the Emmons approved dealers can procure factory vertical knee lever kits for you. It would be unfair to single any one particular guy out because they are all excellent - period.

They can get not only all of the required parts, but in pretty quick time. I would get one of them to fit the parts for you, and I'm sure they wouldn't mind doing it in front of you and show you how to make sure everything is all set up correctly.
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E,

Cameron Cochran · From: Kentucky, USA

Thank you so much everybody!!

I'm going to take everybody's advice into consideration. I definitely won't jump in without taking lots of pictures and doing more research. I'll go ahead and contact Clem about that book and DVD. If I need to get a p/p guru to finish her up for me I won't hesitate to do it. Mike Cass set up my p/p with the Emmons copedent and he did a fantastic job. It plays like butter.

I hope everybody has a great weekend.

Cameron Cochran

Sven Kontio · From: Sweden

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

I just spent the weekend swapping two knee levers. It took a lot of trial and error, but wasn't that difficult. It was also fun and very satisfying to finish up and have my guitar just how I want it, playing perfectly with my chose copedent. I recommend giving it a whack yourself and if you can't figure it out, then you can always take it to a 'guru' anyway. Jump in!

Sven Kontio · From: Sweden

Hey Abe, you´ve got guts! Very Happy

However, if you haven´t bought Clem´s booklet yet, buy it! There´s no major problem putting things where they should be, but did you end up with a correctly adjusted guitar?

Myself, I ripped my D-10 apart, studied images on the forum of other guitars and actually thought I ended up with a perfectly functioning guitar...until I got the booklet and got in touch with Clem personally...

So you might want to do yourself a favour and buy the booklet w/ the dvd package while it´s still around. It´s a one of a kind and I think it actually makes our guitars easier to sell once we want to do that (if ever...). This kind of knowledge won´t be available for ever and should accompany every pp guitar to make sure someone else can use the guitar in the future. (Dang, another advert... Very Happy

)

No, honestly, all you guys out there, regardless if you feel you need the booklet or not at this point, buy it! It´s priceless... and well worth the $20 + $4 postage. What do you get for that money these days anyway?? Winking

Sven

Abe Levy · From: California, USA

Yeah, I wish I would have bought it first. But actually my guitar now plays flawlessly. There's a bit more travel in one of my knee levers than I like, but I'll tackle that next. I'll get a copy now - see if I did anything wrong.

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