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Topic: Advice on tone and technique..........Please |
Ray Anderson
From:
Jenkins, Kentucky USA
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Posted 27 May 2013 8:43 am |
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Compress or not Compress; Are compressors useful or are they crutches? Can good volume pedal techniques accomplish the the same goal or does a compressor work in conjunction with the VP? Is this something I can accomplish with work and practice or is this a genuine piece of gear that one should have access to? Feel free to comment, all advice is appreciated. I'm somewhat "green"and money is tight.  |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 27 May 2013 9:23 am
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| Quote: |
| Are compressors useful or are they crutches? |
Yes.
They can be both, but I don't think using a compressor on a steel is a good idea. You really want to be able to control things like volume changes (subtle), sustain by your technique, and yes it does come with practice and experience. I used to use a compressor back in the 70"s and 80's an an actual effect. I set it up to really pop and squeeze when i hit notes. It kind of gave me that pop that you hear Tele players get. I was trying to emulate the sounds of Don Rich and Roy Nichols. I used one of those adapters that is two 1/4" plugs and plugged it directly into my guitar. I would remove it on songs I didn't want the effect on. Even though it had an on/off switch, I found it affected my tone when in the signal path. I did the same with an envelope filter I used at the time. Both were MXR, and I replaced the push button switches with mini toggles so I could turn them on/off with my hand.
There will be some that come on and talk about how great the compressors are in their setup, and that is fine if it works for them. But I have not seen too many of the big guns that use one in their rigs. I like to have total control of the dynamics of my playing. If I am playing real soft, I don't want it to pull the volume up. Likewise, if I have to push my volume a little higher on loud songs by picking harder, I don't want the compressor to pull the volume back down. I just don't think they are necessary. And of course, if it used to cover up imperfect technique, then that is all wrong.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 27 May 2013 3:30 pm
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Some folks use stomp-box compressors at the front end to boost apparent level and sustain, but in doing so the defiencies in one's picking, blocking and VP technique are often masked, which essentially prevents one ever noticing them or developing the hand and foot techniques that will ultimately yield the same advantages. Whether or not this is a 'crutch' depends entirely upon the one's awareness of one's true capabilities and shortcomings and one's willingness to develop proper techinique regardless.
When used as a program limiter, however, they can be very helpful to a mix engineer trying to fit the signal into an ensemble mix.
I have in my steel rack an old Audio Arts compressor, which is patched between the amp's pre out and the input to the first effect unit, and ultimately back to the power amp input. This studio-quality unit allows me to transparently eliminate distortion in the effects devices and to maintain a consistent gain structure throughout the rig, allowing as much or as little overdrive from the amp's front end as I desire. Somewhat like a dynamic master volume control with peak-stop and high-frequency transient tuning capability. Mostly it sits there and does nothing, but every once in a while...  |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 27 May 2013 4:47 pm
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Skip the compressor. No need for it. Using one will not help your playing at all in any way.
_________________
Bob |
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Ray Anderson
From:
Jenkins, Kentucky USA
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Posted 27 May 2013 6:38 pm
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| I thought that might be the case, but I'm green and didn't know if there was value that I could or could not gain on my own. If it's something that I can do on my own that the route I want to take. I'm a firm believer that the squeezing the best of sounds out of an instrument with the least amount of gear, has to be talent. But I don't want to leave out something that I'd need because of lack of knowledge. BTW Bob, I did like that response 'cause that was how I was raised, plain talk is easily understood. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 28 May 2013 11:37 am
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Yep, Bob's one of the truth speakers here, and that with a minimum of fuss 
Certainly if you are new to the pedal steel you are wise to keep the gear to the minimum, i.e. your instrument, a functional volume pedal and a clean-sounding amp with a good speaker and a decent reverb tank. Some of the masters never use anything more.... |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 28 May 2013 1:58 pm
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| Ray Anderson wrote: |
| I thought that might be the case, but I'm green and didn't know if there was value that I could or could not gain on my own. If it's something that I can do on my own that the route I want to take. I'm a firm believer that the squeezing the best of sounds out of an instrument with the least amount of gear, has to be talent. But I don't want to leave out something that I'd need because of lack of knowledge. |
It's perfectly natural when you start playing to want all the gizmos and gimmicks, but pedal steel has a lot more finesse and skill required than regular guitar (which gave us most of those gimmicks and gizmos). Therefore, I always advise PSG newbies to skip EFX...for at least the first few months. This gives the player time to develop some bar training and ear skills, which aren't as necessary on straight guitar because that's not a variable-pitch instrument.  |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 28 May 2013 6:19 pm
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| Quote: |
| But I have not seen too many of the big guns that use one in their rigs. |
If one of these Big Guns was using a preamp with tubes in it, or a tube power amp, he was using compression. Anything with FET's or "bucket brigade" processing, ditto. If he was using a Peavey steel amp and got remotely loud with it, he was using their "DDT" compressor. Also, very importantly, if he was playing through speakers - he was using compression. All of these elements work together to soften, compress and EQ* the signal. And if you're listening to CD's of steel players, there's like three more stages of compression at least - YouTube or television? Forget about it, that stuff's been stepped on a dozen times - and it HAD to be to fit it in those little boxes!
This might not matter for a while, but there may (hopefully) come a time where you start wanting to sound more like really good players, and you will get there faster if you know what they used and HOW it did what it did and WHY. And most especially, if you are trying to imitate a $10,000 tone with $500 of gimcracks you'll only ever be able to get close by getting the steps in the right order. You see a lot of this attitude with the "all modeling pedals sound like crap!" gentlemen - spend 30 years buying and swapping and making excruciatingly-tiny changes in their rig, but if they can't figure out how make a modeler sound O.K. in five minutes "All modelers suck!" Never them that sucks, it's always the box's fault. Hey - anything that can "read notes" off a CD and derive music from - it's a MODELER.
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| "I spent thirty YEARS learning how to make a great tone!" |
Really? And you're BRAGGING about it? 
*(You wanna know what "true" "pure" "natural" steel sound like? Plug into a minimal preamp, then to a power amp, then to a PA speaker system with tweeters or horns that reproduces ALL the highs - you can crack teeth with that rig! You'll be crawling back to your old compressy rig in no time.)
Oh and Donny -
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| Therefore, I always advise PSG newbies to skip EFX...for at least the first few months. |
I agree, mostly, but I've never had a 13-year-old guitar student who didn't have a pressing, hormonal, NEED to sound at least somewhat badass absolutely as quick as possible. Once in a while you gotta throw 'em a bone... |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 29 May 2013 8:37 am
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In my opinion, the type of music you're playing may influence your decision to use any kind of effects. For traditional country music, I don't use anything but a touch of delay and reverb. I'll also use my Fish & Chips EQ for some dobro sounds and that's about it. But when I play certain modern country songs it can all go out the window. Since it's really more hard rock and blues than country music. I play like a slide guitarist a lot and need some grit and even more sustain. The compressor is pretty good for that.
_________________
Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord,
Last edited by Fred Glave on 29 May 2013 1:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 29 May 2013 12:28 pm
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Effects like compression and distortion can be very effective, but you need learn to play first without them (except for reverb.) After you can play reasonably well, then you can start to experiment with them.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Ray Anderson
From:
Jenkins, Kentucky USA
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Posted 29 May 2013 3:15 pm
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| This is going for my 3rd year at PSG and I admit I said I was " green " and by my standard I will be " green" until I've reached my 5th year. I've developed a pretty good ear and have a good grip on technique. I find myself wanting to spread out to a degree and looking for the right direction to take. You simply can't afford every gadget that's out there. I use a Sho-Bud single channel amp with a JBL D130, would it be more practical to use a good tube pre amp instead of a compressor? Any help with gear selection/information is greatly appreciated. Just tryin' to learn the ropes and avoid the blisters. |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 29 May 2013 3:32 pm
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| Ray Anderson wrote: |
| I use a Sho-Bud single channel amp with a JBL D130, would it be more practical to use a good tube pre amp instead of a compressor? |
Ray, FORGET ABOUT THE COMPRESSOR, AND LEARN ALL YOUR CHORD AND SCALE POSITIONS. And don't worry about getting a new amp. The Sho-Bud amp is just fine.
Nobody will ever run up on stage in the middle of one of your solos and yell "STOP! You're using the wrong amp." I promise.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 29 May 2013 9:26 pm
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| Here's how I look at the way I use it... I can't hear it, but I can feel it. Much the same tactile feeling as tubes vs solid state. It's sorta like the "sag" feeling to me. |
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Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
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Posted 29 May 2013 9:49 pm
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Well, I'd run up to you and tell you that you're using the wrong amp...but only so I could snag it from you.
Those are fine steel amps. Really.
And I agree...forget about the compression for awhile. |
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Eddie Lane
From:
Branson, Missouri, USA
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Posted 30 May 2013 4:36 am
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| Back in the early 80s I was playing with a show in Branson and we had Ray Price in to do the opening show with us that year. Buddy Emmons was with him and I was all excited to see his big effects rack. Well, he rolled in an old beat up road case, took the top off of an old Peavey Session 400, plugged in his volume pedal and played the show. It sounded like he was coming right off of an album....There you go.... |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 30 May 2013 7:59 am
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
| Skip the compressor. No need for it. Using one will not help your playing at all in any way. |
Bob speaks the truth. Forget about any kind of effect that alters your tone when practicing or wood shedding around the house and for that matter, playing out also. If you learn to plug just straight into amp and make it sound good then your on your way to mastering good tone and technique. Then you can add some type of effect if wanted or needed. On our Opry show, I play thru a Peavy Profects only for the Dobro sound and chorus sound when needed. The rest of the time, I just bypass it.
I just have never been fond of the heavy effects like delay and compression and chorus that some use. It takes away from their playing to me. To each his own I guess.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Rick Lawrence
From:
Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Posted 31 May 2013 10:46 am
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I know the O,P. said compression as the PSG effect he asked about, but with him being green as he said, do you guys think he meant delay for a PSG effect?
_________________
MSA Legend D-10
Peavey Nashville 112
Hilton VP |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 31 May 2013 10:52 am
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Seems like he meant compression. He talked about it in relation to volume pedal technique, which has nothing to do with delay.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Clete Ritta
From:
San Antonio, Texas
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Posted 31 May 2013 11:13 am
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| The best investment to improve my tone and technique were weekly private lessons with Denny Mathis and a whole lot of practice! Skip the compressor. |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 31 May 2013 2:42 pm
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On the other hand, you learn a lot by trying out all this stuff....
I tried a solid state amp and just couldn't stop going back to tubes, for the feel and the sound....but by seriously trying both, I really understand why I am sticking with tubes...
I tried a compressor, and found that on two name-brand steels I came across (before I switched to Williams), they simply had no sustain at all, and the compressor (set at minimum) gave them the feel that I get on the Williams with no compression....note that if you do try a compressor, you probably want something like a Keeley, where you can adjust input level to deal with the steel's hot output...
So, nothing to lose by trying this stuff out, and probably something to learn, even if it is just that you were doing it the right way already....
_________________
https://www.lostsailorspdx.com
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Don Griffiths
From:
Steelville, MO
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Posted 22 Feb 2014 1:27 pm
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Ray Anderson wrote
. I use a Sho-Bud single channel amp with a JBL D130, would it be more practical to use a good tube pre amp instead of a compressor?
Well Ray yes, if there is one gadget that would improve your tone with the rig you are you using ,my choice would be a Steel Guitar Black Box to give your signal some tube warmth. I bet your amp sounds good as it is. Would have a similar effect as a tube preamp.
_________________
Shobud Pro1,BMI U12, Santa Cruz F, PRS Standard, Fender Twin Reverb, ‘53 000-28 |
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Don Griffiths
From:
Steelville, MO
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Posted 22 Feb 2014 1:30 pm
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Just realized I was commenting on an old thread.
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Shobud Pro1,BMI U12, Santa Cruz F, PRS Standard, Fender Twin Reverb, ‘53 000-28 |
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Ray Anderson
From:
Jenkins, Kentucky USA
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Posted 23 Feb 2014 7:49 am
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| Thanks Don, Your comment is not wasted , I'm always looking to improve and any advice given is appreciated. I have been considering a Black Box for some time now. |
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John Palumbo
From:
Lansdale, PA.
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Posted 23 Feb 2014 2:12 pm
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| Dave Grafe wrote: |
Yep, Bob's one of the truth speakers here, and that with a minimum of fuss
Certainly if you are new to the pedal steel you are wise to keep the gear to the minimum, i.e. your instrument, a functional volume pedal and a clean-sounding amp with a good speaker and a decent reverb tank. Some of the masters never use anything more.... |
So well said David! |
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