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Topic: Uni = Unified |
Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 26 May 2013 9:13 pm |
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I hear a lot of talk about two tunings on a "Universal" ? I just see it as one big one. Maybe because I went from an S-10 E9 to a S-12 B6/E9 and a C6 12 String lap steel, I have trouble seeing two tunings. I see it as one unified tuning. When I am playing something and I am moving to another chord I always look at the closest proximity and the voicing. I think probably people who played a double see it more as two tunings?[/quote]
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 May 2013 3:19 am
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That's why I call it "Unified" instead of "Universal."
"Both tunings on one neck" fosters a forked thinking, as does a lever lock (at least the way I look at it).
"One neck with all the pockets" seems more sensible.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 27 May 2013 6:49 am
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A Uni ia all of those thngs and more, imo.
There is no One Big Tuning course, as far as I know.
If you want to learn to play it like one big tuning, you kinda have to use the exisitng S10 or D10 Instructional courses.
There are a ton of C6th courses, for example. It takes hours and hours to go through them and weeks months to get good at playing 6th based stuff like the guy who wrote the course. Do I want to hold a lever over for a month, no. I have a Lever Lock for that. If you have one, you can either use it or not use it. You could always use a bungee cord.
There are tons of great ways to play as one big tuning.
It's all up to the player on how they learn it and use it.
Last edited by Pete Burak on 27 May 2013 7:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 27 May 2013 7:01 am
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| i would think a 12 string universal type tuning should enable a player to basically play any kind of lick or chord that he can think of. isn't that the idea? ..not two tunings...one tuning...that you can play jazzy and country and everything in between that you can think of fluidly. i don't hear 12 string players enough to know if this is happening. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 27 May 2013 7:15 am
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A guy can only play what he knows how to play.
If you know an E9th lick, you can probably play it on a Uni.
If you know a C6th lick, you can probably play it on a Uni.
If it's a C6th hammer on lick based on the open C6th tuning, then you probably can't play it the same way on a Uni as you can on C6th.
If it's an E9th lick that uses strings 9-D and 10-B at the same time, you probably can't play it the same way.
There's a ton of similarities and differences.
Ability to use standard E9th pedals on B6th, and Standard C6th pedals on B6th and E9th, is unique to Uni (Some people call this One-Big-Tuning).
It's very very similar to a D10, so a D10 is also basically One-Big-Tuning.
Now this all has nothing to do with a Sacred Steel 12-string tuning, it's closer to Bb6th tuning but different string order, so maybe it isn't so Unified (It would have to be E9/C6th for this, no?), Universal, or One-Big. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 27 May 2013 7:49 am
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Chris, I've watched some players on youtube whose train of thought runs from "9th" to "6th" and back seamlessly in one break, Reece and David Wright spring to mind. I know that's why I am going Uni, because I switch from neck to neck in the middle of a solo. The idea of having them both together moved me more than saving weight.
Since I want 3 half-stops (more if push-pull, pull-release, or all-pull without splits) and a left knee cluster, I'm thinking SD-12 instead of a single body, so weight savings isn't it.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 27 May 2013 8:33 am
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Call it what you want..
Just like a ten string E9th.
A&B pedals will yield A6th
Lower Es gives a B6th
A pedal is a 6th
Any pedal steel is versatile as far as open tunings go.
Universal has more pedals to emulate C6th style over an S-10.
I like Universal Fine.
There are advantages and disadvantages.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 27 May 2013 9:42 am
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Pete I think the difference lies in if you are learning licks and such from tab or rote memory, or approaching the Steel from a Music Theory perspective. If you are going the memory or machine route then it would be different. But I think Ken hit the nail on the head. Call it what you want but probably the difference is are you looking at the music from a memory point of view or a musical point of view. If you look at sheet music it is not written for a tuning. I don't know of any of the great players who are playing by memorizing licks, but maybe they are out there and I just don't know? Good discussion, Thanks
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo.
Last edited by Niels Andrews on 27 May 2013 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 27 May 2013 10:55 am
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| what is 'route memory'? |
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Niels Andrews
From:
Salinas, California, USA
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Posted 27 May 2013 11:04 am
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Blame it on spell check, it should have been rote. For further clarification of anyone who might be a little anal, (of course no insinuation in that comment) I am using it as a noun. Meaning a mechanical course of procedure learned out of habit.
_________________
Die with Memories. Not Dreams.
Good Stuff like Zum S-12, Wolfe Resoport
MSA SS-12, Telonics Combo. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 27 May 2013 11:51 am What you call or name a tuning is really superfluous.
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Funny, isn't it? It appears that most everyone thinks that what he thinks, does, or uses...is best? Truth is, everything is P.O.V. - and thinking of it as one tuning is no more advantageous or proper than thinking of it as two tunings combined. Play it or think of it any way you like, but all that really matters is the result, and that's likely going to be different for different players.  |
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John Billings
From:
Ohio, USA
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Posted 27 May 2013 1:12 pm
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Lane,
How many levers do you need? My Kline has 7 on a single body. |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 27 May 2013 1:22 pm
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Lane,
My Williams U12 is a SD12, and it is way lighter than a normal SD10 for example - although the fact that it is keyless helps! There's a foot less wood on one end... 
I've been trying very hard to regard it as one big tuning, where everything is available - I spotted the tendency to "think E9" or "think B6" early, I don't want to think like that.
Will
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 27 May 2013 1:29 pm
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| Niels Andrews wrote: |
| Pete I think the difference lies in if you are learning licks and such from tab or rote memory, or approaching the Steel from a Music Theory perspective... |
I'm thinking that either way, you have to memorize what pedals/levers to enguage to make the chords you want to play, and/or, what strings to pluck and in which order, to play the melody you want to play.
When I hear the greats play, they play the theme lick of the song pretty much the same way every time. When I listen to them play one of their regular songs at different Steel Conventions, I hear alot of the same licks go by during the improvisational portion (Some of them even say they don't know any Music Theory).
It's like Lick-Playing is Unified with Music-Theory.
You don't need to know Music Theory to play any song, but a person who knows Music Theory doesn't need to play Pedal Steel to tell you what's going on from a Music Theory standpoint.
I'm good with whatever works. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 May 2013 1:55 am
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John, I only want 7, plus 3 half stops. While that's not too crowded for the clever folks like Darvin to work on and build, a double frame (or neck and a half) gives more room to work. While I cannot envision any likely copedent changes, I'd rather have a guitar on which I could perform them.
Will, the pocket you're on will generally influence not only what you'll play in that pocket, it'll influence your likely selection of which pocket to use on the next chord. If you wish to minimize that effect, practice improvising on slower tunes where you have more time to THINK about what comes next; then DISCARD every next idea as too predictable, and find another phrase to play.
There's a touch of danger in performing that way: I like the "music as language" metaphor, wanting every solo to hang together like a soliloquy. Generally, my next idea "flows" from the current one. If I have to discard my next line, then I have to come up with another idea that's NOT a non sequitur. It's like talking about lunch and telling yourself (no, I will NOT mention ribs: I've got it, I'll ask for a wrench!") before playing the next phrase.
Fortunately, I've been neck-hopping long enough that I don't usually change "subjects" as I change necks, it's more like finding that a bit of "vocabulary" from the other neck better suits what I wanted to say.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 28 May 2013 4:27 am
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I started a thread some time ago asking about the idea of one big tuning. Several people responded including Ken.
I am not a complete noob to PSG but I've played mostly E9. I play a Uni and can think E9 or B6. I'm still having trouble getting into the mindset of one big tuning. I suppose it MAY come like everything else with time.
As best as I can self analyze, my problem lies in thinking licks and patterns rather than musically. I did a lot of the Jeff Newman courses and even spent 3 days at his Top Gun school many years ago.
I think Jeff was of course an excellent teacher and his method for new players teaching patterns got me playing right away but it only got me so far.
Now it's actually becoming a hindrance to really learning the guitar and especially the Uni. At an early age I studied music and composition so I know music. I just need to break away from "pattern" thinking and translate what I know to the PSG.
Again maybe with some work and a little time it will come. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 May 2013 5:24 am
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Ollin, even thinking in patterns can work with a "Unified" approach. Just consciously choose to alternate from 9th pockets to 6th pockets. With time of doing it deliberately, they'll both pop into your thinking. Or they do for me.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 28 May 2013 5:56 am Another ?
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OK here's another question but keeps with the idea of the thread and thinking of one big tuning.
My Zum has an added G Lever on LKR. I can fold this lever up and position my foot over Pedals 5&6. If I leave the Lever down it's difficult to rock from 5 to 6 or 6 to 5. It's also difficult to get to Pedal 7 which I don't use much. So I end up thinking E9 or (fold the Lever) and think playing B6. Sort of like the E Lock mindset which obviously makes one think of two separate tunings.
I can press 5 by sort of slanting my left foot, or both 5&6 well enough for a Dim chord. But getting a clean Pedal 6 by slanting my foot is more difficult to hit cleanly.
What do other players do to get to Pedal 5,6 and 7 when they have a LKR? |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 May 2013 6:10 am
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Easiest solution on a Zum, with the transverse link, move the LKR over a few inches.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 28 May 2013 6:10 am
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On my '84 8x5 Zum Uni the LKR is positioned so you can use it with any pedal.
Maybe that lever was originally used for E>Eb's like a standard Emmons setup?
That can be moved over if you want.
Can you guys post some specific examples of your One Big Tuning methodology?
There was a discussion here where I outlined a few of my own:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=245554&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 |
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John Alexander
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Posted 28 May 2013 10:13 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
| Can you guys post some specific examples of your One Big Tuning methodology? |
On the Boo-wah I have the 5th string raising 1/2 step along with the 9th (I have read some archived posts indicating you did this also, years ago).
With that pedal depressed the triad notes are on the same strings as the AB pedals. I have it positioned next to the B pedal, on P3, with traditional P4 next to it. Using it in combination with the B pedal or not, and with or without raising or lowering the Es I have dom7, min6, aug7, dim7 chords, with triad notes all on the usual E9 strings.
Plus it works with traditional P4 making a huge dom9 chord to which can be added the raise or lower of the 4 and 8 strings to get b5, b13 or 13, plus the usual Boowah #9 is still available by lowering string 5 on a lever.
It has become one of my most used pedals, and serves as a natural link between the AB pedals and those further to the right. This is on a Bb6, so the tuning and pedal/lever configuration differ a little from E9/B6. |
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Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 28 May 2013 11:11 am
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| Lane Gray wrote: |
| Easiest solution on a Zum, with the transverse link, move the LKR over a few inches. |
Lane,
Thank you sometimes the simplest solution is always the best. I am not a mechanic and I am unfamiliar with the term "transverse link". I assume it means it reverses the direction on an all pull.
The bracket will still need to be moved and I'm not very patient with woodworking or mechanical things. I know enough to leave that to people that do it every day.
It took me about 6 hours to convert the copedent when I first got the guitar. And yes it was setup Emmons with the E's on the left. So maybe that's why it is where it is.
If I decide to move it over a few inches and I probably will I'll take it to Billy Knowles. He lives very close to me and is an excellent guitar tech. He cleaned and rebuilt the changer on this 82' Zum and it plays like new. Can't speak highly enough about Billy.
Pete,
I have that thread bookmarked now. There is a well of information there, Thank you! |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 May 2013 12:39 pm
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I shall post a link to the picture I have up soon. All all-pull guitars have a reverser, some need the lever and cross shaft to be directly adjacent. Carter uses a lever action.
Bruce Uses a clever deal that combined a freestanding bracket and the reverser, and a pull (or push) rod goes from the bracket to the rod, which can live a distance away. So you can move the lever and bracket without touching the pull train
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Ollin Landers
From:
Willow Springs, NC
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Posted 28 May 2013 1:23 pm
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Lane,
Thank you. I see exactly what you're referring to I just didn't know the term for it. No need to post a pic.
As you stated the idea is you can move the bracket for the KL without effecting the pull roads or cranks. This still means I have to physically unscrew the KL bracket and relocate it.
I'm always a little concerned anytime I start screwing something into a guitar. I know to most guys this is really easy. But it looks like something even I can do if I think it through and take my time.
I bought a 2006 Carter U12. It should be here tomorrow. Once it's here and I have a backup I'll give it a try. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 May 2013 3:42 pm
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The big thing is to keep the link in a straight line. If it pulls off-axis, it can bind
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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