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Topic: Open Letter From Bar Owner to Musicians |
Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Hook Moore
From:
South Charleston,West Virginia
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 12 May 2013 3:51 am |
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Thanks for checking it out, Hook! I didn't actually write this letter, though. I just copied it from an anonymous craigslist ad. I don't think anyone knows who originally wrote it.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 12 May 2013 6:34 am
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post deleted
Last edited by Barry Blackwood on 12 May 2013 6:58 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 12 May 2013 6:39 am
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Thanks for your insightful input, Barry. I guess the hundreds of musicians who've commented are just a bunch of gullible idiots. It's not about who wrote it; it's about whether or not you agree with the points the letter makes. Why bother posting if you just think it's B.S?
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 12 May 2013 6:57 am
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| OK, if it makes you happy, I'll remove it. |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 12 May 2013 7:00 am
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Up to you what you do with it. I just don't get the attitude.
_________________
Jackson Steel Guitars
Web: www.chrisledrew.com |
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Barry Blackwood
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Posted 12 May 2013 7:13 am
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| Quote: |
| Why bother posting if you just think it's B.S? |
You said, "Read it and see what you think." So I did. After a lifetime of playing music, those were my thoughts. |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Posted 12 May 2013 8:49 am
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As I said about this on FacePlace, I think a lot of bar musicians should read this, as it's pretty close to the attitude a lot of bar owners/ managers share.
There are those of us who are consumed by or at least motivated by the art inherent in making music. Coming up against the perception that at some venues we're just alcohol salesmen can make for a difficult adjustment. Many of the bands I know spend a great deal of energy struggling to reconcile the two positions.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 12 May 2013 9:44 am
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| Quote: |
| ...we're just alcohol salesmen |
 This reminds me of the house bands that I played with back in the 1970s and 80s. 7 nights a week for several years, the same two clubs, same crowd, same drinks, every night. The guitarist used to tell me... "We're in the alcohol business!". And he was right, no doubt about it. At that time we were. But I think things have changed somewhat in recent years. A lot of musicians are playing in other types of venues nowadays, not so much in bars 9 to 1... more "listening" gigs, shorter shows, restaurants, town concerts, fairs, etc. Not so much in bars with a manager who's only interest is to keep the cash register ringing. That's how it is around here anyway.
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My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Chris Templeton
From:
The Green Mountain State
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Posted 12 May 2013 11:53 am
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Let's not forget that bars/clubs also serve(d) as places for people to get together, meet other people, dance, sweat, exchange ideas.
What has replaced it? Pixels on a screen, iPads, iPhones and the like.
"Smart" this and that.
I have to wonder if this is a wise improvement for the general population.
_________________
Excel 3/4 Pedal With An 8 String Hawaiian Neck, Sierra Tapper (10 string with a raised fretboard to fret with fingers), Single neck Fessenden 3/5
"The Tapper" : https://christophertempleton.bandcamp.com/album/the-tapper
Soundcloud Playlist: https://soundcloud.com/bluespruce8: |
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Les Anderson
From:
The Great White North
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Posted 12 May 2013 1:46 pm
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A great article/letter for musicians and band leaders to read. Though the days of a live “band” in a bar is all but a thing of the past now, at least in our area, the good/bad memories still linger. During the early sixties I was one of those who regularly played Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays in bars . There was no shortage of work for half decent bands back then. We quickly learned the hard reality however that we were nothing more than a ploy to attract customers into the pubs. We were a regretted expense that became a requirement because other pubs were using live music to attract customers. Some bar owners were great to "work with" while others were a nightmare to "work for".
From what I gather, most of the paying bar gigs are now centered in the southern or mid western USA. I haven’t gigged in a bar for near ten years (A New Years bash at a Legion does not count) . Most of the music in bars now is one musician with canned backup. Possibly, when the economy allows it, band music in bars will return. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 May 2013 5:15 pm
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Some of that article is true, and some is not. You can't attribute one clubs success or failure to the same reasons as any other. Clubs are like bands and people, they're all different. What the author failed to mention is that a lot of the reasons that clubs fail has little or nothing to do with the music. Where is the club located? What is it's competition? How pricey (and good) are the drinks? How friendly and competent is the staff? How clean is the place? (Especially the restrooms!) Do you have a dress code? Are you prepared to toss out the rowdies and troublmakers who spend a lot, but drive out the respectable customers? Do they have anything besides a band to attract costomers? (Food can be important, too, especially when you're trying to get customers to stay.) Sure, bands can be sloppy, lazy, too loud, too limited in what they do (playing only their "set-list"), and they can be down right boring. Of course, when a place has bands like this, it's the management's fault - bands are just what they are. Don't bitch about 'em too much when you're the guy that's hirin' them.
Of course, some bands don't know how to entertain, to "work" the crowd. They're automatons playing song after song with no enthusiasm, no breaks, no humor, and no crowd interaction. One thing is for sure, if all the band does is play nusic - they'd better be damned good at what they do, and you'd also better be paying them accordingly. You don't sell good booze cheap, so don't expect a good band to be cheap, either.
However, the most glaring thing I see in the article is the emphasis on just pushing drinks. Customer to owner: Bars and clubs are not just about drinking. You can drink a helluva lot cheaper at home, or in a rented room. Bars and clubs are about interaction. They're are about entertainment. They're an escape, and a place to have a good time...sometimes just to get away from home, and for many other reasons, too. If you don't give people what they want, there's always another place that will...or the people will just stay home.
Sound familiar, Mr. Club Owner/Manager? |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 12 May 2013 5:27 pm
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Chris -
Read about half of the comments to your blog and have come to a simple conclusion: - they are typical of, and mirror, the type of things to be found on this forum : - the good, bad, and ugly. What is obvious is that the poster's "axe" to be ground is most apparent within the first sentence or two. None of the responses that I read even began to compile salient facts and present a comprehensive view of the subject at hand. But, then, could we expect anything more? There is much room for reasonable compromise and yet none chose to go there. While not attempting to become political, it is obvious that folks are simply locked into an "ideology" and refuse to budge. Seems like the word "compromise" has fallen out of favor in all sectors - leading solely to stalemate. So sad - but it's a sign of the times.
I haven't been on a bandstand in 35 years - and have no desire to do so again.
Richard |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 May 2013 6:05 pm
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One thing I heartily agree with is the ball cap / shorts/Tand flip flop comment. For the life of me, unless you are doing Jimmy Buffet covers, at least look like you didnt just crawl off the carnival circuit or begging for change in front of the QuickStop. I see this all the time with bar bands and live cuts posted on YouTube.
It's passable with the sub-25 crowd, but middle age+ men in that getup is senseless.
_________________
'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 13 May 2013 7:52 am
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I loved the post about the bar owner turning off Sweet Home Alabama (to the crowds displeasure) so the band has to start right as everyone is saying Awwwww.
I'm thinkin'... They turn off the house music where you guys play??? |
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Marc Friedland
From:
Fort Collins, CO
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Posted 13 May 2013 7:57 am
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Chris – about a year or so ago I posted this and I think it directly applies to your post.
Hey Guys & Gals --
Below is a commentary about Bands verses Club Owners that was written by Sterling Howard, the president of The Musicians Contact Service.
It inspired me to write my own thoughts about the subject, so under his story you’ll find mine.
Submitted for your enjoyment & entertainment…
Musicians,
After operating Musicians Contact for 43 years I've witnessed the number of live
music opportunities steadily declining from the late 60's up until the last
couple of years, when it seems the situation has finally bottomed out. So I
guess it's good news that the number of available gigs has stayed the same for
the past two years. Now the challenge is to see if the trend can reverse itself
and start climbing, which brings me to a few observations about some conflicts
between musicians and club owners which should not exist.
We all know there's a lot of free and low paying gigs out there. Today's crappy
economy doesn't help, but these gigs will continue to be around even after the
economy recovers, believe me. The problem is that too many venue owners expect
the band to promote their venue and also bring the crowd. Based on my own
gigging experience, I think this assumption started around 1978 for original
bands, and about 1990 for cover acts.
We must realize that many clubs and restaurants are struggling to make it, just
like everyone else. But they don't hire a lousy chef who then cooks lousy food
which therefore scares away customers, so why is it ok to hire a lousy band?
Plus, the chef is not required to bring a crowd to the venue, even though
musicians seem to be required to do so. And yet they are both technically
employees of the venue. So is the soundman, bartenders, waitresses, etc. Why
aren't they all required to bring in customers just like the band?
The club owner is trying to attract loyal customers that will turn into repeat
business. That's why he hires a quality chef, waitresses and bartender. The
bands he hires should therefore be of the same good quality for the same reason.
The music is actually just another product for the venue to offer, no different
than good food and drink.
It is important for the club to market itself well. Should they leave something
as important as this up to the band? Club owners need a shot of reality - it is
THEIR reputation on the line, not the band's. Remember, the band can just move
to another place. If the owner complains that the band didn't bring enough
people, his usual reaction is to get another band with a larger following. But
the club owner may not understand that the new crowd he sees is following the
band, not his venue, so the next night he does the same practice. Result? He
is not building REPEAT customers.
If he hires bad bands just because they may have a decent following, any person
that might begin to be considered a repeat customer is now turned off to the
venue. So the owner is not building a fan base for his club using this method.
Band members must convince the owner or manager that it is not in the club's
best interest to operate in this fashion.
Since venue owners and managers fancy themselves as good businessmen, bands need
to relate to them as businessmen and not as available talent willing to do
anything to perform. Decades ago, owners were always older than the musicians
playing in their club. These days, many band members are older and wiser than
the club management, so it should make convincing them easier, not harder!
Musicians must make it clear that it is impossible to expect that their friends
and family are going to come in every night. Does the chef's family and friends
eat there every night? Do the bartender's own family and friends come in and
drink every night? The bottom line is that musicians must communicate more with
venue operators so they both can see how everyone will wind up on the same page
with the same goals as opposed to being at odds with one another.
***
Sterling –
I have more to say about this -- I started playing in bands and performing regularly for $ in 1965 and still do, so obviously this isn’t my first rodeo.
I’ll talk about venue owners and management first though they aren’t the only ones to blame.
The venues that rely primarily on a particular band’s nightly client draw -- seems like they really don’t understand the basics about business in general.
If someone invests a great deal of money in the hopes of running a financially successful enterprise – they better know a lot more than just the fact of people liking to go out to eat, drink and be entertained, so if you charge them enough money over your costs you’ll make tons of money. It’s not nearly that simple in today’s world. I feel sorry for them, but they really should have taken some college business courses, talked in depth with people they can trust that have been successful in the business and who are willing to help them, or at the very least done a lot of reading and research about ALL aspects of the business before jumping in.
The idea of musicians talking to the club owners and helping to educate them so everyone is on the same page is great – except that club owners don’t realize the seasoned musician is possibly smarter and know more about their business than they do and they don’t believe it’s worth their time to talk to us about it. After all – these are the same people who didn’t take advanced business courses before they started their business, so I strongly doubt they would now talk to and trust an old job-seeking musician who they don’t know from Adam.
Let’s face it –
The glory days (of venues competing with each other by virtue of the quality of their live entertainment to lure in the mass quantities of people looking to spend large sums of money for an evening’s worth of fun & entertainment) are far behind us – and even if things gradually get better, people of my age will probably be too old to be marketable any more.
Change isn’t always good, but it is inevitable. And “older” people rarely like dramatic changes in their life. Yes – if you’re receiving correspondence from AARP, you’re an older person, even if you still think like a teenager and look younger than your years.
The club’s reputation is on the line, so EVERYTHING is important to them:
The physical location;
Where and how marketing money is invested;
The menu;
The quality & cost of the food;
The décor;
The waitresses & bartenders,
The Entertainment;
Etc, etc, etc...
Unfortunately – except for possibly placing a very small ad in the Yellow Pages or having a small on-line presence in the form of a simple website, Myspace or Facebook page, most club owners know very little about how to successfully “market” and distinguish themselves apart from their competition and probably have little if any money allocated to do so.
This is typically a new club owner’s mistake and this is where “we” the entertainment fit in as well.
In the “Glory Days” I mentioned earlier it was pretty simple – a rough example being the venue could spend $500 for that night’s entertainment and rake in an additional $1,000 to $2,000 that they would not have seen if it wasn’t for the live band. Sure, it had to be a “High Quality” band, meaning well-rehearsed with tight arrangements, strong lead vocals with plenty of nice blending harmonies, professional looking and playing a variety of recognizable tunes that the audience enjoys listening and dancing to.
And all of this occurred regardless of who the “High Quality” band was or if any of their fans showed up that night.
By comparison, yesterday’s Glory Days have turned into today’s Gloomy Days.
There’s plenty of room to talk about “WHY” – the economy, stricter drunk driving laws being enforced, no smoking allowed in the buildings, baby boomers staying home, etc, but let’s save that for another discussion and just accept for whatever reason it has significantly changed and here we are.
In today’s world most club owners are not going to generate an extra $1,000 or more per night by having a “High Quality” band performing as compared to a mediocre band, so obviously the rules are now different.
I believe the club owners could do something about this, but it would most certainly require a monetary investment for promotion, marketing, club improvements, etc, and that investment wouldn’t pay off immediately – so unfortunately that’s going to be a very hard sell!
But enough about lame club owners, let’s talk a little about many of today’s bands - some of them may be more to blame than the club owners…
The bands have changed over the years as well and unfortunately for the most part – not for the better. If you see my definition of a “High Quality” band above, you’ll realize that very few performing bands meet that criteria, and if they even come close to that – they’re probably only doing casuals and higher profile gigs - not willing to play the typical bar & club scene.
This means that the club owners only have mediocre bands or worse to choose from even if they want to improve the quality of their entertainment.
And I’m using the term mediocre very loosely.
Some of these bands have maybe 1 lead singer who in reality is just an average karaoke singer, no beautiful worked out harmonies, maybe a couple of them screaming Ride Sally Ride during the choruses, a rhythm section that doesn’t understand feels & grooves and plays everything way too fast, and a lead guitar player that repeatedly plays the few fast scale patterns they sort of know throughout every song whether it’s appropriate or not at a volume that’s overpowering the rest of the band. I’m guessing many of you would consider a band like that – well… TERRIBLE!
And these terrible bands solicit club owners bragging about the fans they’ll bring in and that they’re willing to play for next to nothing!
If a terrible band really thinks they’re good enough to be playing out in public and entertaining people when they actually can’t hear the differences between a good band and a terrible band, how can we expect the club owners to know the difference….
Thanks for listening,
Marc |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 13 May 2013 9:10 am
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| It's true.Back in Da Golden Age,the band was there basically to sell alcohol by the individual drink,and attract the girls-who would be followed by the guys and their wallets.It worked very,very well;the average player could make a living gigging and sleep in his own bed every night-if he didn't get a better offer(!)I do remember talk of players being uncomfortable with the idea of selling alcohol,but the rationalization was that we'd play the bars to pay the bills until we could get our original tunes on Top 40 Radio and start doing big shows for big $$.Horatio Alger for the Woodstock Generation... |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 13 May 2013 9:14 am
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So you all have played in a bar. How many of you all have OWNED a bar? 
_________________
Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 13 May 2013 9:30 am
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| Bud,I'm sure most of us haven't owned bars.Maybe we all should walk a mile in a bar owner's shoes.By then we'd be a mile away AND we'd have his shoes. |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 13 May 2013 9:59 am
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this reminds me of a recent Bar Rescue, the show where the the bar expert tries to turn around failing bars. This guy owned a bar and his "partner", who it seems didn't put much money into the place, used the bar as his own person jam space literally driving the patrons out of the bar.
The guys attitude was it is better to rock and roll than make money.
They got rid of the guy.
You folks seem to be confusing bars with other music venues. Bar bands have nothing to do with art, in my opinion, and everything to do will filling the seats with paying customers and getting them to drink higher priced drinks. That is what a bar is in business for and the music is there to help grow the bar, not the musicians egos.
If you want to play art music, there are lots of opportunities: college campuses, concerts, home concerts, places that don't serve alcohol. But a bar is a business and a musician that doesn't understand that is in for some rude awakenings.
Last edited by Bill McCloskey on 13 May 2013 11:31 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 13 May 2013 11:22 am
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Well put,Bill.I'd go on to say from personal observation and experience that bar bands had to get it right or somebody else who did get it right would get the work.And we got a lot of great bands out of the bars.JPG&R anyone?
I've started more than one argument by saying that the absence of paying work has resulted in a similar absence of good bands playing good covers,and their replacement by weak bands paying to play weak,derivative originals. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 May 2013 2:43 pm
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
Bar bands have nothing to do with art, in my opinion, and everything to do will filling the seats with paying customers and getting them to drink higher priced drinks. That is what a bar is in business for and the music is there to help grow the bar, not the musicians egos.
...But a bar is a business and a musician that doesn't understand that is in for some rude awakenings. |
You're forgetting one thing, Bill, and that is that you can't put the onus of filling the bar and serving up booze mostly on the band. Sure, a good band helps, but if you watch "BAR Rescue" regularly, you'll see over and over again that most of the success of a bar, even those that feature music, depends on other aspects of the business besides music.
Only a low-life musician would order top-shelf booze at a customer's expense just to pad the owner's pockets. Most customers know when they're getting screwed, whether it's done by the band, or by the club owner. And, it only takes once for them to realize it...and then the band and owners both come out losers in the long run.
I think the owner is feeling some of that pain, hence his ranting. He damn sure ain't doing all that diatribe to help musicians! |
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Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 May 2013 4:23 pm
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This has been a good thread and lots of points I could have made have already been stated pretty well. It's been my observation that most bars which feature live music have a run of four or five years before their customer base moves on to the next "in place". You can tell when a place is on the down side of the hill when it starts getting dirty, the food gets worse, etc. Lots of people go into the bar business for the glamor, girls and good times, and in a few years figure out that it's just a lot of work. There are a lot of clueless people in the bar business and likewise in bands.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Fender Twin Tone Master, Session 400, Harlow Dobro, R.Q.Jones Dobro |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 13 May 2013 4:48 pm
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| Quote: |
| You're forgetting one thing, Bill, and that is that you can't put the onus of filling the bar and serving up booze mostly on the band. |
Ha... no. I've been an entrepreneur for 13 years and I know that most (all) businesses fail in one way or another because of the owner. 
And Bar Rescue certainly bares that out.
It is not that there aren't plenty of reasons for bars to fail. It is to make sure the band is not one of the driving forces. If it isn't making you money, it is losing you money. And the bars that fail the biggest are the ones where the owner bought it because he likes music / liked to hang out there when he was in college/ used to sneak in there when he was in high school/ like the ladies/ like my frat buddies/ like my pirate buddies/ wants to have a place to play music/
and generally has no business being in business. |
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