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Topic: Old mechanisims or modern |
James Taylor
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 27 Apr 2013 7:49 am |
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| How does the mechanics of todays pedal steel guitars compare with such guitars as the Sho bud profesional and other top guitars of their age? |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 27 Apr 2013 8:01 am
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James - quite simply there is no comparison. Pedal steel mechanics have moved on over the last 20 years, with pullers easily changed on square or hex cross rods and with more holes in the pullers to get many options of equalising the pulls.
Many of the current manufacturers polish their undercarriage parts to a mirror finish and use nylon or teflon bushes. Some manufacturers anodise their changer rollers for a very hard wearing surface. Have a look under a new MSA or Show Pro. They are light years away from the early mechanics of the Sho-Buds, but tonally things have remained fairly static.
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Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E,
Last edited by Ken Byng on 27 Apr 2013 8:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 27 Apr 2013 8:02 am
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Modern mechanics have nylon and plastic parts that work smoother and require less lubrication.
My personal belief is that it has an effect on the tone.
Nylon washers in between changer fingers, nylon inserts for cross shafts and nylon hex tuners... Aluminum verses steel.
Some improvements are good and it is the old trade off between many things old verses new.
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MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Fred Glave
From:
McHenry, Illinois, USA
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Posted 27 Apr 2013 8:03 am
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Today's mechanics under the steel are far more precise. They are less complicated to work with and they are quiet. The pedals and levers on steels built today tend to stay in tune for longer periods of time. They will be far less likely to go out of tune even when the guitar is transported. My Stage One pedals and levers have never had to be re-tuned in over a year and I pack it up and move it at least 2-3 times a week. It's amazing.
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Zum Encore, Zum Stage One, Fender 2000, Harlan Bros., Multi-Kord, |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 27 Apr 2013 8:04 am
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slightly more refined, precise, and lighter in weight.
however, the bottom line is.....pull a string and adjust it to stop right where you want it to. |
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Michael Hummel
From:
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 27 Apr 2013 10:47 am
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I took my 'new' 1978 Sho~Bud Pro III to the best mechanic in Canada, Al Brisco, for a setup. I was a brand new player at the time. I asked him what we could do to even the pulls on the B pedal, and he said that other than putting a .022w on the 6th string, the old mechanism had nothing to offer.
I love this old guitar. There is nothing wrong with it (except maybe the player). It's pretty rare I play something where anybody would notice the uneven changes, so until I can justify getting something newer, it will do just fine.
But I can see clearly, being an engineer, how the new mechanics give you the ability to set the instrument up just the way you want it to work for you.
I have plenty of other things to learn that are way more important in terms of making the instrument a beautiful thing to listen to!
Mike
_________________
MSA Classic 5+4
Too many 6-strings and amps to list |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 27 Apr 2013 7:21 pm psg
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| Up to date mechanics only for me. Major difference and depends if a player wants to play all night or spend it working on a guitar. Why get a headache when it ain't necessary? |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 27 Apr 2013 11:38 pm
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| I like and own both for different reasons. I loved my '47 Olds but currently enjoy my 2011 Tundra. It's not a matter of "either/or" for me. |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2013 5:35 am Fondness correlates to vintage at the moment
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I have 3 PSG's. My Fondness for each of them correlates to their era of manufacture.
1983 Sierra U14. It is my go-to guitar.
1973 MSA D10 - A great guitar that returns to pitch after every change. It lacks some things which the Sierra came with as standard.
MID-60'S Emmons S10 (I think it is a 66 or 67). The polite phrase for this one is "very primitive." It is a nuisance to work on and lacks flexibility with regard to the copedents that are easily accomplished.
A new Williams is on my wish-list but my Sierra is more than enough guitar for me right now because I am just starting to play again after a finger injury. A new Williams is not going to happen for me.
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Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^) |
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Dan Beller-McKenna
From:
Durham, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2013 7:03 am
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No question that modern mechanics are smoother and more precise.
But, just for the record, I played four sets on my 1970 ('69?) rack and barrel Sho-Bud Professional last night: tuned it before the gig and never had to touch the tuning the rest of the night.
Dan |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 28 Apr 2013 7:35 am
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My vacationing push-pull was pretty stable.
I never had it and my Zum at the same time.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 28 Apr 2013 7:51 am Re: psg
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| Billy Carr wrote: |
| Up to date mechanics only for me. Major difference and depends if a player wants to play all night or spend it working on a guitar. Why get a headache when it ain't necessary? |
odd thing to say for a steel guitar shop owner. obviously not credible. at one time i had a new zum, an old pp, and an old sho-bud professional rack n barrel. i could take any one out and play all night all week with no problem. no 'working on it'...no 'headaches' as billy says.
if you maintain any steel you don't usually get surprises. so maybe billy doesn't maintain the steels he has and sells? |
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chas smith R.I.P.
From:
Encino, CA, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2013 9:50 am
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| Quote: |
| I loved my '47 Olds but currently enjoy my 2011 Tundra. |
My '64 Merc Colony Park has about 15 wires under the hood and 8 of them are spark plug wires. When I pop the hood on my Excursion V-10, I barely know what I'm looking at, and there's no way I can fix my own car. They've got me, but that's the car I take on trips. |
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Rick Abbott
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2013 4:32 pm
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Disagree if you must, but a bit of slop in the pedals is good...sometimes. Just like no pedals is good sometimes. I like the "feel" of my old Sho~Bud when I'm playing music that needs really expressive pedal sounds. The new mechanics move too quickly for me to execute the note in the exact way I want.
If I want really sharp and precise sounds, it is my Carter I'll go to.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Sehy #112
1975 Peavey Pacer 1963 Gibson Falcon |
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Billy Carr
From:
Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)
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Posted 30 Apr 2013 9:49 pm Mr. Ivey
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| My not wanting guitars with old mechanisms has nothing to do with my maintaining anything. Facts are facts and if someone wants to carry around and play old, heavy guitars with out of date mechanics, so be it. Simply go ahead. I prefer guitars that are lightweight, up to date and don't have any issues underneath. Problem here is not guitars!!! |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 1 May 2013 7:54 am
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| Quote: |
| But, just for the record, I played four sets on my 1970 ('69?) rack and barrel Sho-Bud Professional last night: tuned it before the gig and never had to touch the tuning the rest of the night. |
That's what I like to hear Dan....>awesome!
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Rick Barnhart
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 1 May 2013 8:20 am
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Modern guitars definately have advantages...that being said, I'm loving the sound and feel of my Clinesmith console pedal steel. It took a while to get used to the long throw of the pedals, and granted, it clacks a little underneath....but it's got the "most bestest tone" I've ever heard. Maybe the secret's in all those pulleys, cables, and springs.
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Clinesmith consoles D-8/6 5 pedal, D-8 3 pedal & A25 Frypan, Pettingill Teardrop, & P8 Deluxe.
Last edited by Rick Barnhart on 1 May 2013 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 1 May 2013 8:21 am
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I don't think that the modern guitars are any better than the late 60's+ Emmons or some of the early Sho-Bud models and probably some other brands that I'm not familiar with, mechanically that is. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with modern guitars because there isn't. It's sorta like comparing a 57 Chevrolet to a 2013 Chevrolet.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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John Scanlon
From:
Jackson, Mississippi, USA
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 1 May 2013 9:02 am
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| well, it just sounded to me as if 'mr. carr' assumed the position that old heavy steels with 'outdated' mechanics need to be worked on all night rather than being played. that's a bunch of bull. old mechanisms can perform reliably. it's not the design but tha maintenance of any machine that determines it's reliability. |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 1 May 2013 9:16 am
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My Emmons PP set up by Bobby Bowman is very stable on tuning more so than the 2 Carters I have owned.
Along with a Thomas & Carson Wells
The only guitar I really had to work on was a ZB.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Paul Foster
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 1 May 2013 10:23 am old vs new
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I have a MSA Micro vintage xl and it plays as good as any newer models, a bit heavier but the quality is awesome!!
Reese didum good!! |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 1 May 2013 12:48 pm
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| Ken Metcalf wrote: |
My Emmons PP set up by Bobby Bowman is very stable on tuning more so than the 2 Carters I have owned.
Along with a Thomas & Carson Wells
The only guitar I really had to work on was a ZB. |
Yes Ken, the ZB's are a nightmare compared to a P/P. I would say (JMHO) that ZB's are the worst mechanically designed guitar for that era but they sound like a million bucks and when set up properly play pretty good. I've got 2 P/P's and either one stays in tune and never breaks strings. I don't think I've touched the allen tuners on either one in a couple months, just touch them up with tuner keys and that's only when I've had a big temperature change. My ZB also stays in tune good but I put a new uncarriage with bell cranks under it.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Joe A. Camacho
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Posted 1 May 2013 1:39 pm
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
| Ken Metcalf wrote: |
My Emmons PP set up by Bobby Bowman is very stable on tuning more so than the 2 Carters I have owned.
Along with a Thomas & Carson Wells
The only guitar I really had to work on was a ZB. |
Yes Ken, the ZB's are a nightmare compared to a P/P. I would say (JMHO) that ZB's are the worst mechanically designed guitar for that era but they sound like a million bucks and when set up properly play pretty good. I've got 2 P/P's and either one stays in tune and never breaks strings. I don't think I've touched the allen tuners on either one in a couple months, just touch them up with tuner keys and that's only when I've had a big temperature change. My ZB also stays in tune good but I put a new uncarriage with bell cranks under it. |
True, I got my ZB in '06 set up by Greg Jones and I've never had a problem with it. The same can be said about Ricky Davis' work on Sho-Buds. |
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Jim Cooley
From:
The 'Ville, Texas, USA
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Posted 1 May 2013 1:48 pm
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I was recently away from home and unable to play for the better part of three weeks. When I sat down at my "Ricky Davised" 1973 Sho-Bud LDG, I found two or three strings that were a few cents flat.
Last edited by Jim Cooley on 2 May 2013 6:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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